Posted on 05/28/2007 9:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee
The Christian attorney who fought to keep Terry Schiavo alive says the three leading GOP presidential candidates don't understand the important disability issues involved in the widely publicized 2005 case.
During a recent Republican presidential debate in California, the candidates were asked whether Congress was right to intervene in the Terry Schiavo case by attempting to prevent the state of Florida from removing the disabled woman's feeding tube. The answers varied.
Mitt Romney, former governor of Massachusetts, said he thought it "was a mistake" for Congress to get involved and the matter should have been left at the state level. Senator John McCain said Congress "probably acted too hastily." And former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani called the case a "family dispute."
David Gibbs III of the Christian Law Association says the United States gives greater due process to convicted murderers than to innocent disabled people. The former attorney for Schiavo's parents argues that Congress did the right thing when it intervened to provide her those rights.
"Many of the candidates are following the political wind, if you will, instead of showing leadership and saying, 'You know what? That was good public policy back then. We need to stand up for the disabled. We need to stand up for the senior citizens,'" Gibbs says. "We need to have that compassion for vulnerable people as opposed to taking the mindset that those people that just don't matter," he notes.
It is disingenuous, the Christian attorney contends, for candidates to claim they are pro-life but not be willing to grant due process rights to the disabled. "If you're pro-life, you have to be pro-life at every step," he says.
"Please understand: our founding fathers understood that you don't have any liberty, our Constitution doesn't matter, if you don't protect the innocent life of the citizens," Gibbs explains. "That's why they talked about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- your free speech, your freedom of religion, your right to own a gun or [receive] due process of law," he says. "If the government can kill you, you have no true liberty."
When Rudy Giuliani visited Florida he initially said he was in favor of assisting Terry Schiavo but later backpedaled from those comments, Gibbs points out. And in the recent GOP presidential debate, he says, only Kansas Senator Sam Brownback and Congressman Duncan Hunter of California got the issue right when they were asked about the Schiavo case.
Yes, he did. They probably wanted to die. When Michael kills people, it's because they want to die. He tells us so.
>> 1. Claims that the bone scan proves Terri Schiavo had fractures
--In fact, the scan shows nuclide accumulations. And if they were fractures, they would only be consistent with a major trauma, such as a high speed deceleration injury.
There was no misinformation. The bone scan didn't "prove" fractures. It did, however, show a pattern of hot spots for which the most likely explanation is healing fractures.
Yes, they would be traumatic. Dr. Walker thought so. The bone bruise indicated could hardly have been caused by anything but blunt force trauma. The posterior rib damage was highly suggestive of abuse. Posterior rib damage is not associated with iatrogenic causes such as resuscitation.
These are among the reasons why this document would have gotten Michael Schiavo's phony malpractice suit thrown out of court. And, it is why the bone scan implicates Michael Schiavo in probable domestic violence.
>> 2. Claims that a domestic, unarmed struggle between two people could generate sufficient force to cause high speed deceleration injuries.
--Multiple medical sites and articles linked to show this is impossible.
Impossible? Under any imaginable circumstance? Darned if I can see how any study could prove such a thing. I think you're the one spreading medical misinformation, not "correcting" it.
I told you, Michael squashed her. If you think you can prove otherwise, put some money on it and make the bet payable to Free Republic.
She may very well have had a neck injury. Who claimed it was proven? Nobody. Talk straight.
>> Her neck x-rays in the ER were negative.
Let me correct your own medical misinformation. She had one (1) cervical x-ray in the ER, not multiple "x-rays." Let's not pretend one x-ray is decisive or rules out soft-tissue injury.
The theory stops at the word "asphyxia" and it is by no means disproven. I did and do speculate that the force of a large man's knees might have done the damage shown in the bone scan at two unusual spots. Other apparent fractures would need further explanation in a struggle. I was concerned to show possible mechanics for Terri's near-fatal brain injury (with few or no external marks). Asphyxiation / strangulation is the prime candidate.
The bone scan was, in fact, incidental to the theory. Terri could have been asphyxiated or smothered in the posture I suggested -- and I believe you agreed with that? -- even if the bone scan showed HO rather than healing fractures.
I did not make the accusation, and you are not correcting "medical misinformation" in referring to it. Nonetheless, I'd speculate that the autopsy itself was flat wrong about Terri having documented osteoporosis in 1991. Dr. Thogmartin should be challenged for his source.
Dr. Baden DID say he thought she was the victim of trauma, then he changed his mind and said the autopsy ruled it out. So, he said two opposite things. Nothing wrong with that.
I think he was right the first time.
You state the case wrong. The claim was that he pinned her head (or neck) down too, along with putting his weight on her back. I invited you to be the guinea pig for a follow-up study on the stated terms. Are you quite certain it's safe?
Huh? She had three swallowing tests. Who claimed she didn't? There were none after the early years (1992?).
It's your claim, based on your fancy-pants interpretation of a single word she used, that is ridiculous.
Carla Iyer is a courageous and highly credible witness for the reasons I gave. She put her career on the line to tell the truth. You don't risk a thing sitting in an armchair and calling her names.
Would eternity be long enough?
Pray for the [%&$#@*&#!].
Heck, T’wit, it looks like you’re doing all the work. Maybe I can add a little something:
“Michael Schiavo: Coincidence or PROBABLE CAUSE?
The author, doing medical research, discovered a “smoking gun” - an obscure 1994 Government Study that revealed how Theresa Shiavo’s hospital admission virtually parallels Emergency Room admissions caused by trauma such as physical spousal abuse - wife beating, which would account for her Hypokalemia diagnosis, cardiac arrest, etc. This was further confirmed by a larger detailed study published by the National Institute of Health in 2002.
Hypokalemia caused by trauma is unique in that blood serum K+ levels return to normal about 24 hours after trauma. Theresa Schiavo, although receiving Ka+ electrolyte intervention, did not have K+ return to limits until about 24 hours later. Closed head injury, neck trauma, elevated glycemic levels, along with cardiac arrest, irregular heartbeat, and and other Predictors, were also present.
“Frequent Hypokalemia was noted immediately after trauma... ...Admission Hypokalemia (K < 3.6 meq/l) was more frequent in those with closed head injuries (41.1% vs. 27.5%, P < .001) and in those who suffered spinal cord injuries (54.5% vs. 33.6%, P < .05). Hyperglycemia was more frequent with admission Hypokalemia (45.2% vs. 29.7%, P < .001). Hypokalemia occurred more frequently in younger patients (28.6 vs. 37.7 y, P < .001)..... ....Additionally, Hypokalemia was a positive predictor of ISS (P = .05). Hypokalemic patients more likely needed a ventilator, (26.6% vs. 16.5%, P < .01)....
click here for 2OO2 report published by the National Institute of Health, a government agency.
Additional skeletal trauma to Theresa Schiavo was documented at her autopsy.
Although Michael Schiavo claimed that Theresa Schiavo drank 10 to 15 glasses of iced tea per day (which could reduce electrolytes), iced tea would not give his wife trauma. According to the National Institute of Health, TRAUMA is the proximate cause of severe Hypokalemia (Theresa Schiavo’s admission K=2.0, which is morbidly severe). Husband Michael Schiavo was the only person present to inflict that trauma.”
excerpt http://www.judgegeorgegreer.com/#probable-cause
If only Rudy McRomney did .05% of the research that T’wit has done.
You are 100% correct!
As I've said multiple times, I'm not trying "to get Michael off the hook." I acknowledge that domestic violence is a possibility (and have throughout the conversation) but point out that there is no evidence for it. You seem unable to acknowledge that the possibility that Terri Schiavo's collapse was not caused by Michael Schiavo. You seem to need a "bad guy." I'm looking at the medicine and looking to see what it says. You appear to be looking to convict someone in any way possible, even if it needs spin and distortion to do so.
I’m going to save your list, just in case he confesses.
Which is the truly interesting thing - if Michael Schiavo were to confess and be found the cause, it does not invalidate a single thing on my list. On the other hand, if some new medical test were developed that could prove things one way or the another, it could be used on the samples of Terri Schiavo's tissue that the pathologist still has. If that test proved beyond doubt Terri Schiavo died of natural causes, your arguments would look extremely foolish.
Medical information that was not documented in the medical record at the time but brought forward years later, is very suspect. One could think that if it was something that happened once, and one nurse failed to document, it might be oversight. To postulate that three nurses failed consistently to document what they claim as a frequent occurrence, over months to years, sounds very odd indeed. If this isn't the case, please link to where it was documented in the medical records, and I'll be glad to read it.
We also pointed out to you that Terri did not drool, so SWALLOWED her own saliva.
This has been gone over multiple times. From a Mayo Clinic article, in the section (about a fifth of the way down the page) on PVS
Swallowing of saliva occurs, but the coordinated stages of oropharyngeal passage are impaired and lead to aspiration if challenged. When ice chips are placed inside the patient’s mouth, primitive chewing movements may be observed, and an involuntary swallowing-gag reflex may occur.As for Carla Iyer, please see several preceding posts as to why she is not credible. She claimed Terri Schiavo was "alert and oriented" which means able to give person, place and date. She is either grossly ignorant of basic medical information, or fabricating.
In healthy adults, it takes a fair amount of blunt force to cause multiple bilateral rib fractures. A car accident would do that, struggle on the floor would not. I've posted about the very large amounts of energy involved in high speed deceleration accidents, which is what one would need for multiple rib fractures in a healthy adult. I challenge you to show medical information that this could occur in an unarmed domestic struggle between two adults.
The posterior rib damage was highly suggestive of abuse.
Posterior rib fractures are very suggestive of abuse in infants and children. As I've mentioned several times, you can't automatically assume what holds in children is valid in adults.
Posterior rib damage is not associated with iatrogenic causes such as resuscitation.
Actually, Dr. Walker disagreed with you about that in his testimony:
Q Okay. The abnormalities in the multiple bilateral ribs, could that have occurred during an attempt at resuscitation by the paramedics or hospital staff?I actually think resuscitation in an adult would be more likely to break ribs anteriorly or laterally, not posteriorly, not at the costovertebral junction. But this is Dr. Walker's opinion.
A A vigorous resuscitation could do that, yes.
--Multiple medical sites and articles linked to show this is impossible.
Impossible? Under any imaginable circumstance? Darned if I can see how any study could prove such a thing. I think you're the one spreading medical misinformation, not "correcting" it.
I have linked to studies showing how much energy is involved in high speed deceleration accidents. You have yet to produce one medical citation showing either that an unarmed struggle could produce these forces, or that multiple rib fractures along with your other postulated injuries could be caused without those forces. Yes, I can imagine circumstances - being pushed off a 30 foot drop, for instance - but that doesn't fit your scenario. Biomechanics of injury is a very well-studied field with lots of information available. Produce the scientific information to back up your assertions or admit that you can't.
I told you, Michael squashed her.
Ok, then rebut the paper I posted showing that a heavy weight on the back of a healthy adult wouldn't cause asphyxia. Also show how "squashing" would lead to the pattern of fractures you claim the bone scan indicates.
If you think you can prove otherwise, put some money on it and make the bet payable to Free Republic.
I think the onus is on you to prove your theory is possible, with appropriate medical citations. I know you can't, because I know the biomechanics don't work. If you think you can, bet your money on it.
She had one (1) cervical x-ray in the ER,
Do we know for sure it was a single view instead of the 3 or 5 view series? Also, recall that the bone scan showed no nuclide accumulation in the c-spine.
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