Posted on 06/27/2007 8:38:15 PM PDT by Mount Athos
200 years ago following the Constitution closely was very Liberal, now following the Constitution closely is very Conservative. In 1861 Republicans were radically Liberal and Democrats were reactionary Conservatives. I guess times change in politics and religion.
What did Reagan say? “I didn’t leave the Democratic Party, they left me.”
Funny thing about language development. I once came across a book that gave a long passage of 11th Century French, I forget which dialect, and compared it with a 5th Century version in Latin. The grammar was noticeable different, but I was amazed that they were much more nearly alike than Chaucer is like a modern rendering of his tales. A Frechman of that time, sitting in Church, probably could have understood as much of it as a modern American does Shakespeare. The priest of course would be pronouncing the Latin in the local manner, just as Giegud did. If actors pronounced the Bard’s words as he did, the audience would be very much at sea.
I just can’t stand all the silly stuff that goes on at the altar these days.
***
I know what you mean. (I do go, however, but I am often praying to God to forgive my bitter thoughts during Mass.)
I must have been one of the last converts to join the Catholic Church, using the old Baltimore Catechism. Within a yr, all of that was thrown out the window, and I was left with a church that no longer believed as I did.
I am writing from Lebanon. As far as I know, this region of the world, from Antioch to Gaza spoke Aramaic 2000 years ago. The Lebanese dialect is a mixture of aramaic, arabic, greek and some italian words introduced in the 16th century. I was able to understand a lot of the dialogue in “The Passion” (when the pronunciation of the actors permitted). You can have here the same approach of the English language if you compare present dialects to one of the “mother” tongues. But standard Aramaic? I guess not, you can compare it to the Latin language and its relatively minor transformations since the Roman’s time.
If you want to delve into the phoenician language which is a very close cousin to Aramaic and Hebrew:
http://www.aineldelb.com/activities/Dictionary//index.php
But I read this depressing note on Fr Z's blog:
The project of total direstriction of the Mass in Latin raised doubts and reservations in some bodies of bishop, especially among the French and Americans, fearful that the presence of two liturgical rites could in the end fracture the unity of national Churches and remove authority from the local bishops. From last December, behind the scenes, various modifications were made to the original document, to grant to the bishops – or so it seems – to nevertheless have "the last word".
So it sounds like the same old same old. I'm very, very disappointed. Granted, I haven't read the text and nobody else has, either. But if the Pope lets the national bishops kill this again, I just feel it will not only leave us where we were, it will make things ten times worse. I hope this isn't true, or at any rate, that there is a different slant on this in the actual document.
That has most definitely not been my experience.
I was told by Father Hardon S.J. that Paul VI did want to promulgate a requirement that the New Mass be Celebrated at least once a Sunday in Latin. This would have been not long after it was instituted, (late 60's early 70's). Father told several of us that the Pope intended for the New Mass, (what some here refer to as the Vatican II Mass or the Mass of Paul VI), to be Celebrated in Latin MOST of the time. When this did not happen he considered a Motu proprio but was stopped by Cardinal Suenens who orchestrated resistance from the bishops around the world. The Cardinal had as many bishops as he could send telegrams and letters to the Vatican all to arrive on the same day. Apparently a majority did so and that stopped the Pope from issuing a directive.
The New Mass has been said in Latin by my Pastor for many years and he tells us that as soon as he is allowed to celebrate the Tridentine Rite he is ready.
Before our family found a parish with a good liturgy (about 12 years ago), we were forced to listen to Eagles Wings almost every Sunday. It didn't matter which Catholic Church in the Detroit area we went to the vast majority used this song at Sunday Masses. About 6 weeks ago I had to attend a different parish and wouldn't ya know... they are still singing on Eagles Wings!!! Don't get me wrong the tune to this song is a nice pop melody, sort of like Some Enchanted Evening from South Pacific. Speaking of South Pacific, did you know you can set the Sanctus from the Ordinary to the above mentioned Some Enchanted Evening...try it.
You're kidding right?
Mostly we sing good old hymns, either the traditional Catholic ones (O Sacrament Most Holy, O Sanctissima), the better Anglican ones (Crown Him With Many Crowns, For All the Saints), or stuff out of the old German Catholic hymnals (Nun Danket Alle Gott, Valet Will Ich Dir Geben).
It should be interesting to see how the bishops try to delay or block implementation of the TLM. We are in So Cal and have it pretty bad under Cdl Mahoney and Bishop Brown.
This is going to be challenging politically for priests, but they are here as priests to serve God not politics. The priesthood has traditionally has not been an easy life.
I do hope Pope Benedict exercises some discipline with examples to be made. Bishop Brown is the perfect candidate to lose his head (mitre) and be busted down to priest level and sent into some obscure parish as he has done over his career.
As a Protestant, how should I act, or not act, if I were to visit my nearest Church of the Nativity.
I've visited the Church before and understand not to accept the Sacrament, but is there anything else I should know so as not to upset the congregation or embarass myself?
“I go to St. Benedict Abbey....the monks and priests chant the liturgy in Latin...Gregorian. Matins, lauds, sext, vespers, and compline, plus two masses a day. One in English, one Gregorian chant. Amazing, wonderful.”
By any chance are you talking about the St. Benedict Abbey located in Lisle, Illinois? If so, it’s a wonderful Abbey. I have a great story to tell about what I saw there one time when I was doing a history report on the Abbey. I had a fascinating experience there, the induction of the new Abbot, a very Byzantine-type event. The Cardinal from Chicago was there. All the monks, priests, a procession, a prostrated new Abbot being inducted into his new position. Giant 8 foot tall gothic looking candleholders with flames on top. Top officials from all over the world, including the Eastern Catholic representatives, and from the Orthodox faith too. What a trip it was. It was pure fluke I was there that day, and managed to befriend a couple of monks to go in with. I think they thought I was an invited guest! Little did they know I was there to do research for a paper. What lucky timing on my part. Of course, this may not be the Abbey you are talking about, but if it isn’t, this one is a clone of yours. They also give pipe organ concerts, and the Abbey itself is real unusual architecturally, and I love it.
Fr. Wiener?
No the homily is in English as are the readings of the epistle and gospel - at least that’s the way it was done back in the day.
Also, back then, missals contained the Latin words of the Mass in a column on the left and the English translation in the column on the right.
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