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To: camerakid400
I can't speak for Behe and don't know what his problem is or whether or not the evolutionites "got" to him somehow or other. He's looking at the problem from one particular angle, i.e. biochemistry. Far as I'm concerned, the arguments from biochem are relatively minor. The major arguments against evolution to my thinking include (at a minimum):

I mean, there's more, but that would do for starters.

85 posted on 08/18/2007 5:22:54 PM PDT by rickdylan
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To: rickdylan

You certainly have given evolution very serious thought, and I will never be able to convince you to change sides. You write in a very intellectual manner, so I am surprised that you have not given evolution more consideration. My main question for you is whether or not you accept that the earth and universe are both billions of years old. If you do not, we will have to agree to disagree.

If you do, than the points you have raised are insignificant because our existance could be explained on mathematics, ie. Chaos theory:

Creationists say that order cannot come from chaos. If you shuffle a deck enough times you will statistically end up with the order you started with eventually. It has to. Nuclear reactors are designed by engineers to reduce the chance that neutrons will not miss all the uranium atoms and fail to cause the chain reaction needed. They accomplish this by increasing the amount of the core material so that there are more atoms for the neutron to hit. The same is true of evolution. In the early 1900s scientists tried to make life in a lab mimicking the conditions that the first cell would have needed to be created. This of course failed, which they went on to say that it couldn’t be duplicated so it wasn’t true. However, if you take those conditions and increase the size of the conditions infinitely and the time infinitely, it is mathematically impossible for life not to form. There are infinite numbers of chemical reactions happening all over the planet all the time. For all we know a whale has popped into existence and died instantly in conditions that didn’t work for it. If life has a potential conditions it will form.

Once you understand chaos theory and realize that it is a purely mathematical proven science, evolution is a lot more difficult to disprove or dismiss.
The reason chaos theory works is because of the extraordinarily long periods of time required; the billions of years of time that evolution needs is something humans will never be able to comprehend mentally, thus presenting the problem with many people not understandng evolution.

As for the points you raised, I will not be able to explain the specific biology to the extent of an evolutionary biologist, however, I will make an attempt.

“The outright failure of laboratory tests intended to prove the idea of macroevolution, particularly the tests involving fruit flies.”

While details of macroevolution are continuously studied by the scientific community, the overall theory behind macroevolution (i.e. common descent) has been overwhelmingly consistent with empirical data. Creationists attempt to differentiate between microevolution and macroevolution, asserting various hypotheses which are considered to have no scientific basis by any mainstream scientific organization, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

“The problems involving mathematics and probability theory. The biggest single group of evolution non-believers appears to be mathematicians and not Christians.”

I highly doubt that is the case, especially since chaos theory cannot be logically disproven.

“The problems which arise from the realm of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through large herds of animals.”

Haldane’s dilemma has never been a barrier to evolution, despite some misrepresentations by creationists. Recent work from the Human, Chimpanzee and Macaque genome projects underlines the fact that Haldane’s dilemma does not prevent evolution. Some creationists claim that 1,667 beneficial mutations are too few to make an Einstein from an ape, therefore Haldane’s dilemma shows evolution cannot account for humans. The recent genome results directly address this argument. While the majority of variation is neutral, the question remains exactly how much variation is due to selection, and does it break Haldane’s “speed limit”. Recent comparisons of Human and Chimp genomes, have given a good idea of how many genes have been fixed since the last common ancestor of chimps and humans, 154. Given that we have around 22,000 genes in our genome, then if the same percentage of beneficial mutations holds for the rest of the genome, no more than 238 fixed beneficial mutations is what separates us from the last common ancestor of chimps and humans. (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0701705104v1)

“The total lack of undisputed intermediate fossils.”

This position is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of what represents a transitional feature. A common creationist argument is that no fossils are found with partially functional features. It is plausible, however, that a complex feature with one function can adapt a wholly different function through evolution. The precursor to, for example, a wing, might originally have only been meant for gliding, trapping flying prey, and/or mating display. Nowadays, wings can still have all of these functions, but they are also used in active flight. Although transitional fossils elucidate the evolutionary transition of one life-form to another, they only exemplify snapshots of this process. Due to the special circumstances required for preservation of living beings, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be discovered. Thus, the transition itself can only be illustrated and corroborated by transitional fossils, but it will never be known in detail. However, progressing research and discovery managed to fill in several gaps and continues to do so.

“The logical failure of the supposed new variant, PE.”

I assume you are talking about punctuated evolution? Scientists have scrutinized the fossil records of many organisms looking for evidence of punctuated evolution. One group of coral sea organisms called bryozoan, shows this kind of pattern. The well-preserved fossil record of bryozoans shows that one species first appeared about 140 million years ago and remained unchanged for its first 40 million years. Then there was an explosion of diversification, followed by another period of stability for vast amounts of time. Thats just one example. There is no real logical failure here. (Evolutionary Analysis, by Scott Freeman and Jon C. Herron. Copyright1998 by Prentice-Hall, Inc.)

“The emerging indications that the age of dinosaurs was a few thousand years in the past or a few tens of thousands at most, leaving no time for evolution.”

There are no human fossils or artifacts found with dinosaurs, and there are no dinosaur fossils found with human fossils (except birds, which are descended from dinosaurs; out-of-place human traces such as the Paluxy footprints do not withstand examination). Furthermore, there is an approximately sixty-four million year gap in the fossil record when there are neither dinosaur nor human fossils. If humans and dinosaurs coexisted, traces of the two should be found in the same time places. At the very least, there should not be such a dramatic separation between them.

“The information code which is DNA/RNA, and the fact that information codes do not exist other than for being created.”

There are many many hypotheses that are currently still being tested as to why “junk” DNA exists. Increasing evidence is now indicating that this DNA is not “junk” at all. Especially, it has been found to have various regulatory roles. This means that this so-called “non-coding DNA” influences the behavior of the genes, the “coding DNA”, in important ways. Below are some examples I have found just by some quick research:

A 2002 study from the University of Michigan showed that segments of junk DNA called LINE-1 elements, once thought to be “leftovers from the distant evolutionary past” now “deserve more respect” because they are capable of repairing broken strands of DNA.
A 2003 study from Tel Aviv University found crucial uses for “junk” sequences in human DNA.
A 2004 study from the Cell Press suggests that “more than one third of the mouse and human genomes, previously thought to be non-functional, may play some role in the regulation of gene expression and promotion of genetic diversity.”
A 2005 study from the National Institutes of Health found that social behavior in rodents (and, possibly humans) was affected by portions of the genetic code once thought to be “junk.”
A 2005 study from University of California-San Diego suggested that junk DNA is “critically important to an organism’s evolutionary survival.”
Findings from Purdue University in 2005 stated that “many DNA sequences previously believed to have no function actually may play specialized roles in cell behavior.”
Researchers at the University of Illinois Society for Experimental Biology found an antifreeze-protein gene in a species of fish which “evolved” from junk DNA.
In 2006, University of Iowa researchers documented segments of RNA (previously considered “junk”) that regulated protein production, and could generate microRNAs.
A 2007 study from Stanford University School of Medicine found that “Large swaths of garbled human DNA once dismissed as junk appear to contain some valuable sections.

The overwhelming complexity of the simplest life forms and the failure of all attempts to create any such from scratch or raw materials in labs.

In 1953 Urey and Miller performed their famous expirement. Starting with some elements presumed to be present in the primordial atmosphere (carbon dioxide, water, ammonia, hydrogen, methane, etc.), Miller and Urey were able to produce some amino acid precursors. From the Urey/Miller experiment it has been hypothesized that random combinations of chemicals present in the atmosphere of the primordial earth, helped along by lightning, produced the chemicals which are the building-blocks of the amino acids.

In 1961, Joan Oró found that amino acids could be made from hydrogen cyanide (HCN) and ammonia in a water solution. He also found that his experiment produced a large amount of the nucleotide base adenine. Experiments conducted later showed that the other RNA and DNA bases could be obtained through simulated prebiotic chemistry with a reducing atmosphere.

More recent experiments by chemist Jeffrey Bada at Scripps Institution of Oceanography were similar to those performed by Miller. However Bada noted that in current models of early Earth conditions carbon dioxide and nitrogen create nitrites, which destroy amino acids as fast as they form. However, the early Earth may have had significant amounts of iron and carbonate minerals able to neutralize the effects of the nitrites. When Bada performed the Miller-type experiment with the addition of iron and carbonate minerals, the products were rich in amino acids. This suggests the origin of significant amounts of amino acids may have occurred on Earth even with an atmosphere containing carbon dioxide and nitrogen.
In 2006 another experiment showed that a thick organic haze might have blanketed Early Earth. An organic haze can form over a wide range of methane and carbon dioxide concentrations, believed to be present in the atmosphere of Early Earth. After forming, these organic molecules would have floated down all over the Earth, allowing life to flourish globally.

(I have used some online materials including Scientific American Magazine, Animal Genome Size Database, Nature Magazine, as well as the textbook BSCS Biology, A Moelcular Approach in my explanations)

I would just like to address one more thing. I get the feeling that some members here, as well as yourself, feel that evolution is a Satanic viewpoint, placed on earth by the Devil in order to deceive good Christians and lead them away from God. Organized science, therefore, consists largely of atheists and anti-Christians who, whether through design or ignorance, are doing the work of Satan by spreading evolutionism and repressing the true Christian viewpoint of creationism. I would say that the threat to Christianity absolutely does not come from research scientists, rather, it comes from liberalism and radical Islam. The liberals at the ACLU try to take away holy crosses at cemeteries for troops killed in Iraq, thats just one of many examples. Radical Islam’s goal, obviously, is to convert or kill any non-muslim. My argument is that science and religion do not have to conflict. The only threat science poses to Christianity is with regard to moral issues, such as cloning, abortion, genetic engineering, etc. Those issues, dealing heavily in scientific ETHICS, will be left up to politicians and ethicists.

I probably didn’t change your mind about evolution. It is obviously a personal issue. The real question is weather or not it should be taught in school science classes. I stand by the assertion that it should, however, creationism should be discussed in history and/or philosophy classes. The reason that creationism cannot be taught in science class is that scriptures and religion must be factored in, and that would violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution (and Article I, Section 3 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution) as discussed in “Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al.”


86 posted on 08/18/2007 8:13:11 PM PDT by camerakid400
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