Medical experts never testified in Katrina hospital deaths

CNN ^ | 8/26/07 | Drew Griffin and Kathleen Johnston

[Iwo Jima]

None of these patients have been said to have had a terminal condition.

Try again.

[hocndoc]

Dr. Pou and the nurses have never claimed to intend to cause death or to commit mercy killing. She said that she only intended to sedate, not to kill.

[Iwo Jima]

Dr. Pou's protest ions of intent are meaningless. People are presumed to intend the natural and probable consequences of their actions.

It will probably come as no surprise to you that many people who are charged with unlawfully killing another often state that they "didn't mean to kill them." "I only meant to wound them, scare them, etc."

Dr. Pou told many people that the decision had been made to give lethal doses to certain patients, and then she proceeded to do so. She was not acting out of mercy, but out of her misguided notion that only so many could live, and so she had to decide who would die.

And she did.

[metmom]

Even if they didn’t have a terminal condition at the time Katrina hit, with the heat and humidity they may not have survived that.

I know someone with emphysema and when it gets to hot and humid out, he has trouble breathing.

The one woman was 90 years old. She could have just died anyway. Most people don’t even make it that long and the heat and maybe dehydration could have done her in, not the medicine, even if she was given something for the pain.

She swears she did not kill the patients. Don’t you think that if they were going to do that, they might have tried other methods to make it look more like natural causes? They had to know that there would be inquiry and testing done and what it would show.

I’m not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

[penowa]

"After the forensic pathologist reviewed the records and the test results, he advised that in all four cases it appeared that a lethal amount of morphine was administered. Additionally, in two cases the concentration of midazolam was greater than expected from normal therapeutic doses. The forensic pathologist advised that according to the medical records, none of the four patients were being administered morphine or midazolam for their routine pharmaceutical care requirements."

I have ZERO medical training (and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite either,) but it seems to me that if a forensic pathologist says 4 cases received a lethal amount of morphine and they ended up DEAD, O.D.'d, it would appear that someone snuffed them, not knocked them out, so they would peacefully sleep through the emergency. AND none of the four were previously receiving morphine or midazolam doses in ANY amount prior for treatment, as the medical records of the patients show, the lethal dose would appear to have been given for one purpose - to kill them, rather than for treatment.

Assuming that the forensic pathologist knows his business, this would appear to be evidence of what the medical personnel who signed affidavits and brought the case before the grand jury were stating.

As for the MD who split after learning that they planned to kill the patients, but before the patients were administered the fatal doses, and reported it to the authorities, if I thought I could not stop the action they were about to take, I would have done just what he/she did. I would not stick around to find out if they planned to do me too, to keep me from talking.

[Timeout]

Joann:

I think maybe you’re thinking of the residents of that nursing home where they weren’t evacuated. THOSE “patients” did, indeed, drown. I don’t know what happened as far as prosecutions in that case.

[Iwo Jima]

Some of these nine patients may not have made it, that is true. But they had survived a great deal, they had no serious medical ailments, no terminal conditions. Who's to say that they would not have survived another day or so until rescued?

Who's decision is it if someone gets to try to survive or not? Not these patients. They weren't consulted. Not their families, the families that were there were sent away before the dirty deed was done. Dr. Pou felt that she was the one to make that decision. I think not. How about you?

These patients did not have emphysema or trouble breathing that I have ever heard about. Certainly, Dr. Pou has not maintained that.

"She swears that she did not kill the patients." More accurately, what she is in effect saying is that killing them was the compassionate thing to do. But would it surprise you to learn that many people accused of crimes deny it? Do you give all indicted persons the same benefit of the doubt, or just doctors?

At this stage of the proceedings, the standard of proof is not "beyond a reasonable doubt." All the grand jurors are asked to consider is if there is probable cause that a crime may have been committed. The criminal trial jury determines guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Actually, overdoses of morphine is a common way that medical personnel "assist" a patient into death. Dr. Pou was just more desperate than most doctors and couldn't take the time to do it quietly and subtlety. And I bet that they never dreamed that part of the medical establishment would "squeal" on them by telling the authorities what they knew. To the doctors, this is tantamount to treason. They are closing ranks because if Dr. Pou is guilty, then they all are because they have all done similar things, just not so openly and so many at one time.

[sig226]

They were on the seventh floor. That’s about eighty feet above ground level. The levees aren’t that high, they’re maybe fifteen feet at the highest. Even if the top of the closest levee was twenty feet above ground level right next to the hospital, that’s only the second floor.

[Iwo Jima]

Keep in mind that it was 9 patients that were reportedly given the lethal doses. The AG picked 4 for the purposes of indictment, the 4 that he felt he could make the best case on. He did not include that 90 year old woman because, as some have said on this threads, she might have died of old age.

But 9 patients with no terminal conditions or serious illnesses are given lethal doses of drugs, and all 9 die. There is no evidence, not even an allegation, that any patient or family consented to being euthanized or that the patients, families, authorities, or anyone on the outside were told that that was even being contemplated. On the contrary, family members were told to leave.

Murder or mercy? Certainly not mercy. They could have gotten these patients out if they wanted to. They, including Dr. Pou, didn't want to.

I have some problems with the doctor who left because he did not IMMEDIATELY go to the authorities in order to prevent the lethal injections. He went later, for whatever reasons. He should have either stayed and tried to stop it, left and tried to stop it, or called the families to try and stop it.

The fact that the doctor left, and everybody left shortly after these patients were injected, shows that coming and going was certainly possible. These people were not "marooned" or "incommunicado."

[Joan Kerrey]

Being in deplorable conditions and working long and hard hours doesn’t give you the right to kill a patient.

---

That’s the point. They didn’t

[Iwo Jima]

They gave them lethal doses of drugs. They killed them.

[spunkets]

I read the affidavit you posted. It's an affidavit by an investigator, not any of the principals involved. The story presented by the investigator is unbelievable. It has the all those folks running around looking for and killing patients for no reason. It has them agreeing to do it and actively participating in it. It has them and others knowingly ignoring the matter and allowing it to happen. I think the investigator is an delusional incompitent, and her affidavit is a fantasy piece.

All those chiefs running around killing and agreeing to kill patients and no one says squat? Pau's got her satanic sidekicks in hte ready and waiting to do her bidding? Hey. y'all. We're going to kill the patients. Y'all can go home now. Pau's a real Charlie Manson here with great powers. LOL! If it went down like Virginia B. Rider's fantasy, they'd have all been found guilty, not just Pau. Of course it's always possible she exerted her satanic powers over the DA and the grand jury. She apparently was able to exert them over the other characters in Rider's script. Note Rider's script contains no data, or even initials for the "forensic pathologist". Yet she's very thoughough about the lab the samples were sent to.

"None of these patients have been said to have had a terminal condition."

They were in critical condition. Given some of the ages, I'm guessing they were terminal also.

[Iwo Jima]

On what basis do you say that they were in critical condition? Perhaps some were, but that's not been asserted by Dr. Pou or anyone that I know.

The coroner found no cause of death other than the lethal doses of narcotics. Dr. Pou does not dispute that the injections caused their deaths, she just says that her intent was not to kill.

[sig226]

Double jeapordy would be prosecution for the same crime. Since the grand jury didn’t indict, it seems to me that the case could be presented again, and the constitution wouldn’t prevent an indictment. The defendants have not been tried, and that’s the heart of double jeapordy.

The article does not mention who said what before the grand jury. It says that five acknowledged experts were asked to review the case, all concluded that the evidence suggested homicide, and none of them were asked to appear before the grand jury. It sounds like the prosecutor wanted to make the case go away. Maybe he thinks he is helping the city move forward. There would have to be something extremely unusual for it to be some kind of self interest. But I don’t think this is the best way.

[Iwo Jima]

That Dr. Pou is not Charlie Manson makes this case all the worse. The really awful thing that this case demonstrates is that very well respected doctors think that it is within their purview to decide who lives and dies and to take steps to hasten the deaths of people who they think should die or are dying but not fast enough to suit them. They excuse their behavior to themselves and other doctors by saying it is “compassionate.”

[spunkets]

I assumed they were terminal... Cancer and such. didn't you read your post?

"During that meeting, Susan Mulderick, Incident Commander for Memorial Medical Center, advised participants she was aware Lifecare had nine critical patients on the seventh floor."

[Iwo Jima]

O.K. so one of the conspirators who worked for the Tenet hospital (Memorial) who's executive had decided that patients should be euthanized told the long term care facility that she undestood that they had 9 critical patients. That doesn't make it so. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. Usually, though, critically ill patients are in hospitals, not in long term care.

Did anyone say that they had cancer? And if they did, so what?

Are you saying that anyone with cancer or even someone critically ill should be given lethal injections?

[Iwo Jima]

I have one or two more posts in me for tonight and then it's time to sign off.

Would you agree with me on this: IF the allegations in that affidavit are true, do you agree that what was done was wrong and the participating parties including but not limited to Dr. Pou should be punished as the law allows?

[spunkets]

"O.K. so one of the conspirators who worked for the Tenet hospital (Memorial) who's executive had decided that patients should be euthanized told the long term care facility that she undestood that they had 9 critical patients. That doesn't make it so."

LOL! ...but she's telling the truth otherwise, and they just hunted folks down, floor by floor to kill as many folks as they could. These folks were just in for x-ray exams and blood tests...

"Are you saying that anyone with cancer or even someone critically ill should be given lethal injections?"

there you go with the lethal injeciton nonsense again. Where's hte data? 8mgs don't cut it! Data talks. BS walks. All I've seen regarding that claim is pure BS. The data so far says 8mgs.

[ktscarlett66]

I agree. And my grandmother, who died last year at the age of 86, said the same thing. As we watched the Katrina story unfold on TV, she said something about those in hospitals and nursing homes. When the Dr Pou story broke, she said “God help me, if I was in that situation, at my age or in bad health, I’d WANT them to end my misery. Imagine being in that heat, that stench, with no clean water or supplies, no toilet, no way to cook whatever food you had, no way to cool off, in pain! Listen, when you’re my age, death isn’t the worst thing that can happen. You’ve faced it. You’re ready for it.”

I can understand that view. I wouldn’t want my dog to be left in those conditions, let alone my beloved family. I watched my mother in law die a lingering, 2 year long death and it made me realize that death itself can be very welcome. And if you believe in God (as both of these ladies did) death can be welcomed. They were convinced that something better was waiting. Their deaths - while sad for us - weren’t sorrowful and terrible things.