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To: William Tell 2
I wonder who started that utterly false garbage about the Iroquois having a "federal government"?

It has absolutely no basis in historical reality.

6 posted on 10/08/2007 10:26:28 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: wideawake; William Tell 2
I wonder who started that utterly false garbage about the Iroquois having a "federal government"?

A key seems to be the 1751 letter from Benjamin Franklin to James Parker, in which he wrote:

It would be a strange thing if Six Nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such an union, and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has subsisted ages and appears indissoluble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies, to whom it is more necessary and must be more advantageous, and who cannot be supposed to want an equal understanding of their interests.
You might be interested in the following, also...

Native American Political Systems and the Evolution of Democracy: An Annotated Bibliography
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/NAPSnEoD.html

I'm no expert in all of this about the Iroquois, but what bugged me was the way the it seems to me that they had a federal system, but what bugged me was this part:

According to the leaflet's authors, "The American federal system derives not from Europe - whose nation's knew nothing of democracy - but Indian tribal organizations."

This leaflet distributed to schoolchildren claimed Europeans knew nothing of democracy, a concept and word created by the ancient Greeks.
There might be truth in the statement that our federal system is derived from the tribal nations not Europe, but obviously democracy was known by the Greeks. Still, the difference between a republic and a democracy is important. These are subtle propaganda techniques they are using.

It's also rotten that mispunctuated pamphlets were distributed in our schools. Where can I get a scan or copy of one of these?

35 posted on 10/11/2007 9:45:40 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: wideawake; Antoninus
I wonder who started that utterly false garbage about the Iroquois having a "federal government"?

Well, there is some basis in fact here. The original 5 tribes had a confederacy based at Onondaga that was founded before Europeans got here (when exactly is a matter of debate). It was a representative system in which chiefs from the 5 tribes and from the various clans were specifically appointed to 1 of 50 different slots in the Roll Call of Chiefs at the great Council at Onondaga. Then there was one chief called the Thadodaho who presided "first of equals" over the whole thing.

But to say it was a democracy or even a federal government...mmm...that's pushing it. The Mohawk during the 1650s were continually at odds with the rest of the League, and at one point they were at war with their fellow League members the Seneca. Moreover, when consensus could not be reached between the Five Nations, the central fire would be covered and every nation was, in essence, free to go on its own. It was really much more like a loose version of the Articles of Confederation.

Admiration for some aspects of the Iroquois League is nothing new in American History. They weren't called "the Romans of the West" in the 1800s for nothing....but the degree to which some academics will go to deny--in the face of flat-out documentary evidence--that the Iroquois practiced ritual cannibalism, enslaved conquered peoples, and brutally tortured their enemies is really beyond the pale.

Moreover, there were plenty of European models of representative government for the Founding Fathers to choose from: Rome, Greece, the Italian Republics. The U.S. government is firmly in that tradition. We did not have horns of office, roll calls of chiefs, clan representation, elder brothers and younger brothers, condolence ceremonies between the states, etc. There is no Federal Keeper of the Wampum. ;)

41 posted on 08/18/2008 11:00:06 AM PDT by Claud
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