Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Kevmo; Wallace T.; Salo; Defiant; GOPJ; RaceBannon; Petronski; bmwcyle; river rat; KevinDavis; ...
To everyone who posted in this thread (unless I have a typo in your freepernick)

kevmo;wallace T.;salo;defiant;GOPJ;racebannon;petronski;bmwcyle;river rat;kevindavis;incindiary;mindbender26;mgstarr;mcgruff;bigjoesaddle;extremely extreme extremist;appypappy;wideawake;sjackson;lsufan;dighton;moose4;darksheare;a ca guy;vbmoneyspender;billcompton;bray;gswarrior;constantine XIII;marysecretary;allegra;Iwo Jima;RavenATB;mnehrling;NautiNurse;ElectricStrawberry;Puddleglum;montag813;gitmo;trisham;esopman;darkwing104;submarinerswife;numberonepal;evets;kenttrappedinliberalseattle;uncledick;arrowhead1952;starcmc;mnjohnnie;the ghost of freepers past;traviskicks;ob1knob;rightwingintelligentsia;massgopguy;mredd;toddlintown;ejonesie22;desscorp;-=SoylentSquirrel=-;vietnam vet from new mexico;ncbraveheart;mr apple;ferox

I was disturbed enough by the allegations to go search out info on this story.

THESE EVENTS DID HAPPEN AS DESCRIBED, on Feb. 24, 1991, under Maj. Gen. Thomas G. Rhame, the Big Red One, First Infantry (Mechanized)

Ron Paul was running a very small newsletter before the advent of the internet to level the playing field regarding the dissemination of information. At the time he wrote the blurb about the bulldozing, he was repeating a widely known series of incidents that occurred with the 1ID spearheading the gulf war invasion. To: LSUfan

Frontline Transcript on the trench bulldozing incidents.

NARRATOR: The American 1st Infantry Division had the job of storming the trenches to clear a path for the tanks. To avoid hand-to-hand fighting, they planned to bury the Iraqi defenders alive.

Col. LON MAGGART, 1st Infantry Division: A thought occurred to me, we could actually use these plows to fill in the trenches. In fact, I had tested it myself. I got down in the ditch myself and had two tanks plow towards me, just to see what it did.

I learned several things and one is I learned that it happens very quickly, so the defender has a choice to make, but he has to make it very quickly. He can either give up and hop out of the trench, he can try to run down the trench and get away, but he better do those quickly because these things move at amazing speed down there.

NARRATOR: Along the Iraqi border ran a sand barrier, a berm. Beyond that lay five miles of minefields and then the Iraqi trenches.

1st U.S. SOLDIER: We got the first one, first berm in a minute.

2nd U.S. SOLDIER: That's real good. The second one's a tougher one.

NARRATOR: Armored bulldozers and tanks fitted with plows broke through the berm and moved on to the trenches. Eighteen-year-old Joe Queen drove one of the lead bulldozers.

JOE QUEEN: What we did is we just took the dirt that the Iraqi soldiers had dug out_ we just pushed that dirt right back into the trench. You could just look at the man's eyes and see fear. You know, you see him scared. You know, you're looking at a man's_ the whites of his eyes as you're going through in the trench with this bulldozer, covering in the trench.

And they were firing at the bulldozer and the first bullet that hit the blade, that made me know then, "Hey, look. This is for real. There's no game. Those are real bullets and a bullet would kill you."

NARRATOR: After the war, press accounts reported thousands of Iraqis were buried. Most independent analysts estimate it was just hundreds. The Army says it was about 150.

JOE QUEEN: You don't think about, "Hey, what about this guy? What about that guy?" He had a chance to get out. He had every opportunity to get out and he took the way to die for his country, just like any American would.

NARRATOR: By the end of the ground war's first day, all of Schwarzkopf's horses were on the attack.

Gen. NORMAN SCHWARZKOPF: I went to bed that night very satisfied with the fact that the campaign plan was unfolding and that_ that it looked like we were going to have a terrific success and_ you know, and accomplish everything we wanted to accomplish.

NARRATOR: In Washington that Sunday, President Bush had received little news. If there were heavy U.S. casualties, it could finish him politically and could even stop the war.

RICHARD CHENEY, Secretary of Defense: I got briefed just before I went into the church. The president was right ahead of me. I passed him a note that said, "Mr. President, things are going very well." We all went back to the White House. I got out a map from Time magazine, just sort of showing exactly what was happening, and I was able to tell him there that things were going extraordinarily well.

We had assumed that the toughest part of the ground war, in terms of casualties, would have been the early hours of that conflict and, in fact, what we were finding was that the air war had been enormously effective and decimated the Iraqi forces and that they, in fact, were collapsing in front of us.

NARRATOR: But in Riyadh the allied commander was having a bad morning.

http://www.1stid.org/history/index.cfm

On the morning of Feb. 24, 1991, under Maj. Gen. Thomas G. Rhame, the Big Red One spearheaded the armored attack into Iraq, by creating the all-important breach in Iraqi defenses that enabled VII Corps units to smash into Iraq. The Division broke through the enemy defensive lines, decimated the Iraqi 26th Inf. Div. by and took over 2,500 prisoners. After the breachhead was secured, the British 1st Armored Division was allowed to advance and pass through the Big Red One. This kept up the momentum of the coalition force's attack. The Division then followed and drove to the east deep into enemy territory.

----------------------------

Further info: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/death.html

How many Iraqis died?

Independent analysts generally agree the Iraqi death toll was well below initial post-war estimates. In the immediate aftermath of the war, these estimates ranged as high as 100,000 Iraqi troops killed and 300,000 wounded.

According to "Gulf War Air Power Survey" by Thomas A. Keaney and Eliot A. Cohen, (a report commissioned by the U.S. Air Force; 1993-ISBN 0-16-041950-6), there were an estimated 10-12,000 Iraqi combat deaths in the air campaign and as many as 10,000 casualties in the ground war. This analysis is based on enemy prisoner of war reports.

The Iraqi government says 2,300 civilians died during the air campaign.

One infamous incident during the war highlighted the question of large-scale Iraqi combat deaths. This was the `bulldozer assault' in which two brigades from the U.S. Army's 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized)--The Big Red One--used plows mounted on tanks and combat earthmovers to bury Iraqi soldiers defending the fortified "Saddam Line."

While approximately 2,000 of the troops surrendered, escaping burial, one newspaper story reported that the U.S. commanders estimated thousands of Iraqi soldiers had been buried alive during the two-day assault February 24-25, 1991.

However, like all other troop estimates made during the war, the estimated 8,000 Iraqi defenders was probably greatly inflated. While one commander thought the numbers might have been in the thousands, another reported his brigade buried between 80 and 250 Iraqis. After the war, the Iraqi government found 44 bodies.


208 posted on 11/12/2007 5:15:48 AM PST by JerseyHighlander
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: JerseyHighlander
There's no question they happened, the incident was widely reported at the time.

In Ron Paul's and your mind they're war crimes, in mine and many others they're not.

A simple disagreement.

Paul should be proud to run on his position that American forces commit war crimes.

As you know they slaughter civilians as well.

Ron Paul: US "military is mowing civilians down in the streets"

Just the few articles posted here last week answer the question of why Paul has refused to make copies of his newsletter available to the media.

209 posted on 11/12/2007 5:27:04 AM PST by SJackson (every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, none to make him afraid,)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander; gitmo
And I will respond to you with the words of gitmo from post #17...

And what does RP think these soldiers should have done? If the enemy refuses to surrender, you use the safest means available to destroy them.

So what do YOU think they should have done? Invited them over for tea and crumpets? It was war. They had the option to surrender. They chose to die. I will not lose sleep over that.

210 posted on 11/12/2007 5:28:08 AM PST by StarCMC (http://cannoneerno4.wordpress.com/2007/08/11/school-of-the-counterpropagandist/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander

There’s a place for you Ron Paul supporters and it’s not here.


211 posted on 11/12/2007 5:29:25 AM PST by McGruff (A "Big Time" Fred Thompson supporter!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander; Allegra

Rachel Corrie couldn’t have said it any better.


215 posted on 11/12/2007 5:35:58 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("Ron Paul and his flaming antiwar spam monkeys can Kiss my Ass!!" -- Jim Robinson, 09/30/07)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander
(1) The events did not happen "as described" despite your claims to the contrary.

(2) 44 Iraqi soldiers died in combat when their defensive position was bulldozed. A combat death is a combat death, not a war crime.

(3) At the time that Paul wrote about it, the story was wild-eyed speculation - and predictably the facts of the case were far different from the initial speculation.

(4) Yet Paul, writing before any investigation and possessing no hard information, immediately leapt to attack US soldiers as war criminals before any facts were out. Murtha anyone? Kerry anyone?

(5) It is obvious that Ron Paul's default ideological position is "I hate America and its military." He is beneath contempt.

217 posted on 11/12/2007 5:42:51 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander; KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Wow. You and Ron Paul must really hate America and our troops.

I'll bet if you posted that agenda-driven media drivel over on DU, you'd be a hero there.

219 posted on 11/12/2007 5:56:01 AM PST by Allegra (Greetings from a kinder, gentler Iraq. God bless US and Coalition Forces.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander

Maybe we should have gone after them with flame throwers and killed them by burning them alive like WWII, eh?

THEY WERE THE ENEMY.

And we killed them.

That is not a war crime. Ron Paul is a whack job.


222 posted on 11/12/2007 6:13:45 AM PST by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty; The Pendleton 8: We are not going down without a fight)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander; All
Wow, so basically our soldiers should no longer kill the enemy.

Hum...

Ron Paul says we can defend ourselves with 5 submarines. Guess they will be armed with “Fluffy Bunny Mark I” missiles...

225 posted on 11/12/2007 6:36:40 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Real voters in real voting booths will elect FDT.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander

Gee, I guess that’s why they call it “war.”


226 posted on 11/12/2007 6:43:48 AM PST by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander

OK. So? American combat troops faced off against Iraqi combat troops who would not surrender and would not leave their defensive positions. The American troops used the most expeditious manner possible to eliminate the threat. Game over. This is a total non-issue except, apparently, to Ron Paul and some of the Paulestinians.

}:-)4


239 posted on 11/12/2007 7:21:43 AM PST by Moose4 (Ron Paul is like a beautiful plate of food ruined by a cow patty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander
I guess Ron Paul would be happy with an Army of Sir Robins...


243 posted on 11/12/2007 8:06:31 AM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander

If you were disturbed by the “allegations,” I would hope it was the charge of “war crimes” against our forces that disturbed you...NOT the fact we may have killed the enemy before us by burying them in place...

There is no polite way to kill a stranger who has presented himself as your enemy...
There is no requirement to have a “fair fight”, although it is highly recommended that YOU live and your enemy dies or surrenders...
No “Rule of War” forbids the use of bulldozers to combat entrenched troops...
No “Rule of War” requires our men to die attacking these entrenched troops...
They could have been LEGALLY killed by use of Fire, Water, Explosion, Bombs, Nuclear blast, etc, etc.....everything except those weapons or techniques already designated as “illegal” by the “Rules of War” - such as gas.

Screw Ron Paul and his charges of “War Crimes”...
The real crime is that assholes such as Ron Paul sit in our Senate.
Has he yet complained against the Homicide Bombers attacking schools full of children, for being bold enough to educate girls?
Has he yet complained against Jihadists who frequently televise the beheading of hostages which is CLEARLY in violation of the “Rules of War” and treatment of prisoners..

The Jihadists and Ron Paul need to learn that THIS war against the Western Civilizations is going to cost the war mongering Jihadists as many deaths as it requires to drive them back under their rocks.

We didn’t promise them a “glorious death”, their Allah did. Our guys simply delivered the most efficient manner of death they had at hand to implement.


244 posted on 11/12/2007 9:14:49 AM PST by river rat (Semper Fi - You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander; All

So what.. It is war..


259 posted on 11/12/2007 6:35:41 PM PST by KevinDavis (Mitt Romney 08)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

To: JerseyHighlander

....and I didn’t say it didn’t happen.

Who friggin’ cares if they use a bulldozer to kill guys in a trench......while getting shot at? Not me. I was trained to actually kill the enemy.....to kill the guy shooting at me and my guys. ...not to worry about what some politician seeking air-time was gonna say about it from the safety fo 10000 miles of separation from the action.

Would you rather me and my troops have to clear the trenches the old fashioned hand-hand and bayonet manner...and have me lose half my guys?

Can we please allow our highly trained killing machines to actually kill the enemy without whining about it afterwards?

Nawwww.....there’s gotta be a war crime in there for a politician to rant about.


262 posted on 11/13/2007 6:45:23 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (1/27 Wolfhounds...cut in half during the Clinton years.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson