Posted on 12/22/2007 10:38:31 PM PST by Stoat
Mary was nothing if not neat. The brains and other "stuff" were outside. If the cops hadn't come, Pig Man's charges probably would have come and cleaned up. Pig Man lived on land adjacent to Mary's but with no direct frontage on the roads.
I don't know who he was, but most of the land thereabouts belonged to my Lee or Harrison ancestors.
“Depends on the situation. Say a Korean shopkeeper pulls out a shotgun when a gang of hoods is milling about the outside of his store in a threatening way. Say he or his wife “dissed” one of them earlier. The gun accidentally goes off, as one of the hoods makes a move for it. What say you then?
Or if the hoods were in the process of robbing him, and the gun accidentally goes off? What then?”
‘I was in fear of my life.’
I assure you, I will never accidentally kill someone while pointing a gun at them. Maybe with a ricochet, or by dropping the gun, but not while pointing it. I was taught (by a cop, honorary uncle) that when the weapon is pointed to your satisfaction, the trigger goes back, and the gun goes off. I might accidentally wound someone, being old and shaky, these days.
Nope. But it would have been a sure case of self-defense,if he shot them as they broke in.
Joe Horn is white and John White is black.
FReepers are bending over backwards to justify the conviction of John White, as far as I can tell, for that reason alone. There is zero evidence that Horn was directly threatened by anyone, whreas everyone agrees that White and his son were directly threatened.
Ultimately, I believe John White took things too far - but a reasonable person can understand why he did what he did.
What a POS
I hope Mr white wins on appeal
White was being threatened by a crowd of angry young men, and he did not know whether they were armed or not.
Any reasonable person, if they had a crowd of angry drunks screaming insults and threatening violence to them by name outside their home, would feel themselves to be immediately threatened.
White was in fear for his life.
Thank you very much for your kind and gracious words :-)
As is so often the case after I hit the "Post" button here, I think of additional things that I 'should' have included. In this case I would add that now that Mr. White will be in jail for quite a while and his guns have been confiscated (probably all of them, whether legally owned or not, because they're evidence in the case) his family is not only without a Dad but without the protection from real threats that his guns would have provided had he exercised their usage more thoughtfully.
His family is not only without protection now, but it's known worldwide that they are defenseless. He's done far more harm to his family than good.
Forget that! You come onto my property and threaten me, you are dead. D-E-A-D! Mr. White should be pardoned and given a citation of valor.
Indeed.
And the Cicciaros exercised their right to expose themselves as ignorant trash just like, say, Cindy Sheehan.
"I'm going to Disney"?
"I'm going to Disney"?
There are no words to describe such cravenness.
Unfortunately for Mr. White, the law doesn't equate a bunch of drunk kids outside shouting insults while he is securely inside his home as being an immediate life threat.
He definitely placed his life, and the life of his family in immediate jeopardy, however, when he made the decision to go outside his secure home and escalate the situation from a bunch of drunk shouting kids into a lethal situation.
The law typically doesn't smile upon you when you make dumb decisions that serve only to make a bad situation worse.
On Long Island he could probably have expected a multi-officer response within mere moments to a call of "black man under siege by white drunken mob" , considering how eager the police are to avoid any hint of a 'racial' incident.
Instead, he apparently went outside and spent 20 minutes shouting at them and eventually one of them got shot.
That's fine, but if you are in Long Island, New York, and the 'threat' is manifested as a bunch of unarmed, drunk kids shouting at you while you are securely inside your home, and you make the decision to go outside and escalate the situation for 20 minutes without calling the police, then you'll be sharing a cell with Mr. White.
What time of night was this, how is your night vision these days? Do you search each and every one of those people that are calling you "Nigger" before or after they pull out a gun in the night. Do you just let them slap your gun out of your hand, or do you mean it when you point a gun, cause you better mean it. When that last symbolism of protecting your home is slapped down, you can bet that the last resembelance of respecting that man's property was gone, there was fixing to be a beating with 4 on 2 taking place. As you admit, pointing a gun at somebody is a last resort, only a drunken stupid fool does not realize that and looks like Mr. White had his hands full with those that night.
I understand where you are coming from of course, as you do I... but in this case I side with Mr. White... unfortunately for him, his location probable screwed him even before the case began. We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.
As a rule my wife and I have a pact... I confront danger on property head on in a place of my choosing when possible, if I fail to stop the danger, my wife is to barracade herself in our designated area with the children, having phoned the police if possible, and to shoot until she runs out of ammo when confronted... You may consider us unworthy to own a gun, but we will die defending our family the best we know how if pressed. I guess the more irk of your post to me comes with your gun grabbing statement. Cold Dead Hand is my answer.
I don't give a flying circus how you handle any situation unless it directly involves me and my family's safety. You come shouting words like that drunk mob did to Mr. White in the middle of the unlit night, well I am just stating that you probable will not get close enough to me to slap my gun from my hand. That is all I am saying... jail or the joke death penalty is gonna be the last thing on my mind.
BTW... keep you "ignoramus" statements to yourself next time.
How could Mr White have known they were all unarmed. The testimony indicates that certain of these young men were on his property. He had already heard the threats issued against his son. Does Mr White have a right to protect his property from a mob of young men hurling racial invectives or must he sit in the house until somebody gets the drunken bright idea to set it on fire?
The prosecutor actually made a point that Mr White had not "hunted in years". Do you agree with the prosecutor that this somehow points to Mr White's guilt?
Mr. White is paying a steep price for what you call "unarmed drunk kids" making racially tinged threats while on and near his property. Your characrterization of them as kids is bogus nonsense. 17 and 18 year olds are young men and the number of 50 year olds who could stand up to these "kids" unarmed in a fight are few and far between.
I don't know if Mr White killed this young man in cold blood or by accident but I do know that the prosecutor's argument that you must hunt to have guns is bogus leftist bullcrap that he sold to the jurors. Additionally, his implication that Mr. White venturing outside his house to protect his property and family is evidence of his intent to kill is utter nonsense.
Mr. White should have moved to Texas.
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I believe that the most likely scenario at work that night was that a drunken Cicciaro thought he could goad the Whites into an act of violence by shouting racial slurs and death threats at them.
As a working class white ethnic from Queens, I have some knowledge of Cicciaro's type and what he was thinking.
He was thinking that he would spark a confrontation, he and his buddies would kick the crap out of the Whites even if the Whites got a couple of good licks in, and when the cops showed up the usual scenario would take place: both sides would accuse the others of swinging first, both sides would press charges, and then both sides would agree to drop the charges and forget the incident.
When I was growing up in the area, this was a pretty typical weekend night scenario.
I'm guessing what happened is that Cicciaro's taunting and physical aggression got the better of White's judgement. Cicciaro dared White and White was stupid enough to take the dare - and now his life is ruined because of a piece of loudmouthed trash and his willingness to take that trash's bait.
This case is about race, but not about imaginary lynch mobs or the KKK.
It is about a black man who grew up in the 60s and 70s, worked hard and made good, moving into a nice neighborhood and enjoying the respect he earned - until a snotnosed teenaged wiseass made him feel that all his hard work to achieve a level of gentility and respect was a mirage. Cicciaro humiliated him in front of his son - and that kind of humiliation can make a man snap.
Cicciaro was pushing White to see how far White would go, how much sh!t White would willingly eat, how much abuse White would willingly take. Cicciaro didn't get the answer he was looking for, and now Cicciaro's useless, assh*le father is prancing around babbling about Disney.
The whole affair is disgusting and disheartening. To top it all off, the airhead who started the ball rolling with a colossal lie doesn't even have the good sense to keep her mouth shut and accept responsibility for what she initiated with her big lying mouth.
Perhaps you're not as naive as your statement here suggests but until you give me reason to believe otherwise I'll assume you are indeed that naive. 30 years ago young men like this were routinely armed with dangerous weapons when going to a fight, I can't imagine it has gotten any better. But be my guest, live your life as if the bad guys are all unarmed.
As for the threatened with weapons strawman, you built it you tear it down.
Being an unwanted person on another's property is called "trespassing" and in New York that's not the same thing as creating an imminent life threat to another person, last time I checked. Trespassers are dealt with by calling the police, who will be delighted to come out to a black man's house and remove drunken white punks from his property before a racial incident is created.
Well, that would be a wonderful argument if I was arguing that Mr White could shoot trespassers on sight. Since I'm not arguing that, I have no idea why you wrote it unless you are enamored with your the breadth of your New York Statutes knowledge. It is not unlawful for a New York resident to carry a gun on his own property if so licensed. You are are not stating New York Law correctly. A jury can well decide that a a reasonable person was justified in using deadly force in a case like this which is why it was such a close call for the jury. They could also decide that the shooting was unintentional. They could not put this guy in jail for 5-15 for an unregistered gun. See Bernard Goetz.
Of course not. While the drunk punks are merely outside shouting at him he can call the police and have them carted away, and he can enjoy Christmas dinner with his family.
Or not, there is no statute making it a crime not to call in a complaint to the police.
If they give him reason to believe that they are intent on arson, then at that point he is legitimately in fear of his life and would be applauded by all, including myself, to defend himself and his family with lethal force.
I'm sure Mr. White and his family will be suitably comforted by your magnanimous gesture.
No, that point is irrelevant to the issue.
No, it wasn't irrelevant, the prosecutor used it to paint Mr White as a gun nut. It is very relevant and a shame that you don't understand that.
Actually, it's not what I call them, it's what they, in fact, were.
So we were all kids in the Army and Marine Corps? Who knew?
You seem fixated on the 'racial' aspect of the white kids' threats. Do you feel that because they were racial in nature that this serves to justify Mr. White's actions?
Now you're dissembling, I mentioned race exactly once to describe the threats launched at the White's. It would seem to be especially relevant since the gun that Mr White carried was given to him by his grandfather who, as it happens, was burned out in the Jim Crow south many years ago. Let's try keeping it real here pal.
No actually it's not. I have met numerous 20-somethings whom I would have no problem in referring to as "kids" because they are completely lacking in adult maturity, as is the case with this bunch. It takes far more than the number of years you've been alive to graduate into true adulthood. If you act like a kid, you should expect to be referred to as one.
I really could care less who you have or haven't met. They are not "kids" in the eyes of the law. They can be exceptionally dangerous under certain circumstances and should be treated as such.
The law is not written based upon who can stand up to whom in a bare-knuckle fight.
Wrong again, the laws are written so that those unable to defend themselves in a "bare knuckle fight" may use additional force if justified.
Of course it is.
And yet once again that is how the prosecutor helped convince the jury to convict.
Of course it's nonsense.. Mr. White was apparently dumb enough to think that he could "reason" with a bunch of drunk punk kids, and that it was somehow okay for him to wave a gun inches from the face of one of the louder ones....so close that he tried to slap it away.
If the kid tried to slap a gun out of the hand of a homeowner while the homeowner was on his property and the gun went off because of that, the jury should have found Mr White not guilty of the manslaughter charge. If Mr White waited a bit before re-targeting and then shooting the young man, then the jury was probably correct in their verdict. But they would have to be correct beyond a reasonable doubt.
Agreed, but since he chose to live in Long Island, he needs to accept the fact that the laws in Long Island are quite different than those in Texas, a concept that many posters to this thread appear to be unaware of.
BTW, how many years do you think Bernie Goetz should have spent in jail? 5-15?
That's another reason why calling the police in such a situation is such a grand, worthwhile thing to do.
They instantly remove all of this irrelevant interpersonal garbage that inflames any group of warring parties and bring things to a dispassionate, law-oriented level, as opposed to a superheated emotional level where nobody can hear anybody else because everybody is shouting so loudly.....and eventually somebody gets needlessly shot.
The whole affair is disgusting and disheartening.
It's also extremely sad, that Mr. White recognized the value and importance of firearms but either didn't take the time to learn about the context of their appropriate and lawful use or allowed his emotions to get the better of him and forgot whatever he may have known....the end result is the same.
It's also terribly sad that now his family is known worldwide as a family that is living completely unprotected....they are now at far greater risk than ever before. One of the innumerable advantages of living in an area that respects the Second Amendment is that even if you choose, for whatever reason, not to own a firearm, criminals will never know whether you do or you don't, and so this offers some degree of additional protection from violent crime.
In Long Island, I would imagine that criminals will typically assume that people are not well-armed, but in the case of the Whites it is now no longer an assumption....criminals the world over know for a fact that they are unarmed, and this is an incredibly dangerous situation for them.
Second degree manslaughter would be involuntary and just requires recklessness. First degree manslaughter requires intent to harm.
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