Posted on 04/03/2008 12:03:31 PM PDT by Man50D
St Olaf's College, Northfield, MN
A debate will be held in Buntrock Hall, St Olaf's College, Northfield, MN at 8:00 PM, Thursday April 10th. The event is sponsored by the St Olaf College Republicans, but it is open to all interested parties regardless of political affiliation. David Strom, a graduate and professor at neighboring Carlton College will argue for the flat tax. Mr Strom is now President of THE FAIR MARKET INSTITUTE after a term as President of THE MN TAXPAYERS LEAGUE. He can be heard weekly on The Patriot, radio station 1280 AM, Saturdays from 9:00 am to 11:00 am. Dennis Madden will argue for the FAIR TAX. Dennis is the volunteer State Director for MN 4 FAIR TAX, an arm of AMERICANS FOR FAIR TAXATION, the grassroots organization working for the passage of HR 25 and S 1025, THE FAIR TAX ACT of 2007.
Date: Thursday, April 10, 2008
Time: 8:00 PM
What is the challenge is the amount of legislation and departments that will need to change in relation to the Fair tax. Many of these departments and legislation fall under different governmental jurisdictions and would each require separate legal addressing. Of course, you then would run into situations known as Decree nisi where one law cannot be changed until another is fully changed and implemented. In many cases, you could have a circular decree nisi situation in regards to legal oversight of existing departments versus new ones created to oversee change (you can't implement X until you have a department to enforce it, and you can't create the department until you implement X..)
I asked a fair tax 'evangelist' who actually was pretty keen on tax law and worked for a congressman. He estimated that, in reality, it could take almost a decade to properly change all the laws and departments needed.
In other words, the reality isn't about the support side, it is about the actual changes needed to implement it.
I'm not saying the fair tax is all bad, just saying the flat could be implemented in a shorter time and a long term plan for converting to a fair tax could be developed and run.
I dunno, I went to Macalester and I’m 6’6”...I’m not sure what the selection is like these days.
Correction six rates. I left out 10%.
7 rates
Don’t forget 0%
“You just refuted your own argument”
No, I didn’t.
My argument is that the current tax structure is actually FLATTER than the fair tax, using fairtax.org’s own data.
The complexity / length of a table has little to do with the flatness of the tax.
You’re pointing to a table that is 12 pages long as your proof. But that 12 page table can be summarized in less than one, IF you have the capability to do math.
But here’s the thing you’re missing: because of the “prebate” scheme, the actual effective tax rates people would pay would vary dramatically. Those below the poverty level would pay a distinctly different effective % of their income than someone well over the poverty level. In fact, they would receive (pay negative taxes) a significantly higher amount than they currently receive. It’s in fairtax.org’s own arguments!
Again - the length / complexity of a tax table has very little to nothing to do with the flatness of the tax structure.
If you want a flatter tax structure, the fair tax is a step in the wrong direction.
Think of complexity v flatness this way:
Option 1: 25% sales tax with a prebate for $20k in expenditures
a) Household in the lowest quintile earns an annual income of $15,900 pretax currently. If they spend it all, they pay $3975 in taxes, but get a prebate for $5000, so they pay an effective tax rate of -6.4%
b) Household in the middle quintile earns an annual income of $58500 pretax currently. If they spend it all, that’s $14625 in tax, with a prebate for $5000, for an effective rate of 16.5%
c) Household in the highest quintile earns an annual average of $231,300 pretax currently. If they spend all of it, they’ll get an effective rate of 22.8%. If they spend half of it, they see an effective rate of 10.3%
Option 2: The current tax structure.
(http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/12-11-HistoricalTaxRates.pdf)
case a) pays an average of 4.3% instead of -6.4%
case b) pays an average of 14.2% instead of 16.5%
case c) pays an average of 25.5% instead of 22.8% (10.3% if they only spend half)
Do you see? The fair tax has a simpler sounding structure, but it doesn’t result in flatter effective tax rates.
just wait till you find out about the monthly entitlement check mailed to every adult. (just wait for K street lobbyists to get a hold of clients who want exemptions, just wait for Robert Reich to start demanding a “living rebate” every month.)
Just wait till you find out about the mandatory federal registration.
it is all available without any propaganda for your dining and dancing pleasure at http://www.thomas.gov under the searh term “fair tax” or “HR 25”
actually if those frequent flyer miles are taxable and in fact they are assets in divorce proceedings assuming the lawyer is savy enough to take a look. In defense of those who do the actual traveling, those miles are often a reward for picking and PUTTIN UP with the aggrivation of a particular airline.
There are Republicans at St. Olaf??!! Perhaps there is yet hope.
You can bet it will be the 35% rate. The poor and the elderly will have their entire income taxed. The wealthy will have their villas off shore and pay no tax on what they spend. If you have saved, after tax money, When you spend that money it will be taxed again at 35%. NO THANKS
We’re wasting our time....
fairtax supporters are completely delusional....
And you have just suggested even more complexity to a horrid system.
I have been working on my personal taxes since mid-December, when I tried to guess what the rules would be to avoid the alternate minimum tax. (Congress passed the law in late Dec.) I learned about recapturing ordinary income on stock I acquired from my employer at a reduced price 20 years ago, and dug up dusty records to obtain the required data. I bared my financial and philosophical soul, telling the government where I got my income, how much it was and to whom I donated money. I paid taxes on inflation (sometimes know as capital gains). Stock I had held for twenty years tripled in price. How much of that was a real increase in purchasing power and how much was inflation? It doesn't matter, I paid tax on the entire gain. I have no idea how my depreciation is calculated, I just let the (not free) software do it.
I don't think I am alone in spending hours and days dealing with subtle intricacies of the tax code (sometimes correctly). Please don't tell us how to tweak and further complicate the current system. Let's ditch it and start over.
Technically, those frequent flier miles, and any other business assets that are used for personal, non-business purposes are taxable income. Often, however, the problem is in determining exactly how much is personal vs. business, and in interpreting complex, confusing regulations. Often, the final determination depends on peoples intent, and that opens the door to abuse. The FairTax would eliminate much of this awful situation.
actually the fair tax would do no such thing. There is a “computation of value” that OldIRS does which NewIRS will do.
Divorce Judges have been doing the calculation for decades. The fact is the FairTaxSCAMMERS have a very poorly thought out scam which has been shown as a failure in the past on similar schemes.
It is EASY to legally avoid consumption taxes. In 1991 it killed the luxury goods manufacturing in the USA. Now with the internet in 2008 it is easy to see in the “no shipping, no sales tax” to neutralize this sales tax with entitlement program.
I am curious. What failures? When, where, and under what conditions?
there are more than enough exampls on these fair tax scam threads.
any time you tax items which can be purchased elswhere with a lower tax people do so.
Look at duty free shops.
or the 1991 luxury tax.
look at LEGAL avoidance of state sales taxes.
the list goes on and on.
You don’t even touch on the fiasco of the Great Society wealfare state promoted with the included prebate/rebate...
every month the government sends FREE MONEY!
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