Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?

CreationEvolutionHeadlines ^ | September 10, 2008

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Maybe I’m having an early onset of Alzheimer’s, but I can’t seem to remember one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable.

Animal testing. If all "kinds" were independent creations, testing drugs on mice would have no relevance to what would happen in humans.

Genetic testing of families. If traits are not passed from parents to children, then testing parents would provide no information about possible risks to their children.

Drug-resistant bacteria. If bacteria that were selected from being dosed didn't have increased resistance, there could be no drug-resistant bacteria.

If I spent more time in the old archives I could probably come up with some more.

[Caramelgal]

I had already figured that out... ;)>

I just like to point it out for those who may still misunderstand the bigger issue.

I understand the objections to TOE by many evangelical fundamentalists and those of other faiths (including many Muslims BTW) based on their religious beliefs and their interpretations of scripture and I really don’t want to denigrate or belittle their religious faith only because I don’t hold the same religious view.

But on the other hand I want to point out that this is just the kind of thing that some (perhaps many) YEC fundamentalists would also have taught in public school or university science class rooms.

It is one thing to rationally and scientifically question or debate TOE or to even bring up Creationist or ID theories as topics of general theoretical and philosophical debate along side of the TOE, but then it’s quite another thing to teach as hard science, an Earth centered solar system and Universe, a 6,000 year old earth, the Great Flood of Noah’s time in place of plate tectonics and volcanism, a flat earth, dino’s walking along side humans, any fossils that don’t fit the Bible are fakes, etc. etc, etc. because it is based solely on their interpretation of a religious text and the OT book of Genesis in particular.

Some religions have scripturally based objections to blood transfusions and all pharmaceuticals or in eating pork or shell fish or in eating red meat on Friday’s but I’d sure not want any of my doctors to have gotten their medical degree from a medical school based solely on that particular sort of religious interpretation. I wouldn’t go out of my way to hire an Amish electrician or auto mechanic for much the same reason. (But if you are interested, ask me about the time by brother’s car broke down on a country road in SE central PA and an Amish farmer repaired his car ;)> )

I also have objections to the equally unscientifically unsound and socio-political- economically driven agenda that global warming is a singularly a man-made phenomenon, in teaching that socialism or communism is preferable to the Republic our Founders gave us in History classes, to a radical homosexual and feminist agenda in Literature classes and many other things currently being taught in public schools and universities.

But in my opinion, radical fundamentalist creationism “science” is just the opposite side of the same very bad coin.

I’m sure that many YEC fundamentalists would be very happy to have other fundamentalist YEC’s teach public school Science/Religion/Biblical interpretation to their kids but might not be so happy about having a Catholic or a Mormon science teacher teaching their kids about Science/Religion/Biblical interpretation any more than I would like a fundamentalist/YEC telling my Catholic kid that not only is the TOE evil but so is the Pope and that my kid isn’t a “real” Christian because he or she doesn’t go to the same church as the teacher.

I have no problems with religion I just don’t want anyone’s religion forced on me. And if some think that science and TOE is a religion on its own, then fine – opt out and home school or send your kid to a religious school but don’t try to skew sound science just to fit your religion.

I offer what I think is a good compromise – I’ll keep out me and my Priest and my kid’s science teacher out of your Sunday school class if you keep your Sunday school teacher and YEC Pastor out of my kid’s science class.

[Fichori]

“Fichori – Unless I’m misunderstanding your position; do you really believe that the Sun orbits a stationary and unmovable Earth?” [excerpt]

Do I think the Sun orbits a stationary Earth?

No!
(Goodgrief, where do people get these ideas?)

By placing a laser-ring gyro on the Earth, we can know that is is spinning, at what rate and on what axis.

By observing the stars(with the knowledge that the Earth spins), we know that the Earth orbits the Sun.

“Do you also believe that the Moon landings were a big cover up and government conspiracy and filmed and staged on a Hollywood sound stage?” [excerpt]

I have not done an in depth study on the subject of moon landings (But I do know someone who has researched it), but from what I've seen, the conspiracies are just that.

I have yet to see hard evidence that the moon landings did not take place.

“Because to believe in the first would necessitated a belief in the second based on your a$$ backward and totally irrational and uniformed and uneducated understanding of basic physics, gravity and the long proven fact of a heliocentric solar system.” [excerpt]

LOL!

Theres a name for that: Geocentric Fruitcake.

[Fichori]

“Fichori is a creationist. He believes the Earth is the center of the Universe, that it is surrounded by water and that God made the Earth 6000 years ago. Then God flooded the Earth 4000 years ago with that water that the earth is surrounded by (rain from heaven).”

LeGrande is an atheist and habitually lies about what he assumes other people believe.

When he says I believe something, it only means that he wants me to believe that.

(i.e. he wants his debate opponents to be fruitcakes)

[Fichori]

Ping to 1735

(For some reason when I hit CRTL-V, it didn't paste your username into the box.)

[Fichori]

“I had already figured that out... ;)>” [excerpt]

Its not what people don't know, its just that they know so much that ain't so.

“I understand the objections to TOE by many evangelical fundamentalists and those of other faiths (including many Muslims BTW) based on their religious beliefs and their interpretations of scripture and I really don’t want to denigrate or belittle their religious faith only because I don’t hold the same religious view.” [excerpt]

You forgot scientific objections.

“But on the other hand I want to point out that this is just the kind of thing that some (perhaps many) YEC fundamentalists would also have taught in public school or university science class rooms.” [excerpt]

I am a YEC and I do NOT want Creationism taught in public school.

“It is one thing to rationally and scientifically question or debate TOE or to even bring up Creationist or ID theories as topics of general theoretical and philosophical debate along side of the TOE, but then it’s quite another thing to teach as hard science, an Earth centered solar system and Universe, a 6,000 year old earth, the Great Flood of Noah’s time in place of plate tectonics and volcanism, a flat earth, dino’s walking along side humans, any fossils that don’t fit the Bible are fakes, etc. etc, etc. because it is based solely on their interpretation of a religious text and the OT book of Genesis in particular.” [excerpt]

You bring up a an interesting point.

Lets look at it from another perspective.

It is one thing to rationally and scientifically question or debate Creation or to even bring up Evolution or ID theories as topics of general theoretical and philosophical debate along side of Creation, but then it’s quite another thing to teach as hard science, a Death centered solar system and Universe, a 4.5 billion year old earth, the Great Cambrian explosion in place of plate tectonics and volcanism, an old earth, dino’s dying out millions of years ago, any fossils that don’t fit Evolution are fakes, etc. etc, etc. because it is based solely on their interpretation of a religious text and the Holy book of Darwin in particular.

Evolution requires you to have Faith in the interpretation of evidence, and that the philosophical assumptions are correct.

Empirical science is testable and does not require Faith.
Evolution is not testable and is not Empirical science.

It shouldn't be taught as science.

“I also have objections to the equally unscientifically unsound and socio-political- economically driven agenda that global warming is a singularly a man-made phenomenon, in teaching that socialism or communism is preferable to the Republic our Founders gave us in History classes, to a radical homosexual and feminist agenda in Literature classes and many other things currently being taught in public schools and universities.” [excerpt]

So how about a compromise?
Schools keep teaching all the above stuff you don't like and they also keep teaching Evolution.

Neither Global Warming nor Evolution are empirically testable.

“But in my opinion, radical fundamentalist creationism “science” is just the opposite side of the same very bad coin.” [excerpt]

So you don't want Global Warming forced down your kid's throats, but you want Evolution forced down the throats of all the Creationists kids.

“I’m sure that many YEC fundamentalists would be very happy to have other fundamentalist YEC’s teach public school Science/Religion/Biblical interpretation to their kids but might not be so happy about having a Catholic or a Mormon science teacher teaching their kids about Science/Religion/Biblical interpretation any more than I would like a fundamentalist/YEC telling my Catholic kid that not only is the TOE evil but so is the Pope and that my kid isn’t a “real” Christian because he or she doesn’t go to the same church as the teacher.” [excerpt]

Like I said before, as a YEC, I don't want Creationism being taught in public school.

“I have no problems with religion I just don’t want anyone’s religion forced on me. And if some think that science and TOE is a religion on its own, then fine – opt out and home school or send your kid to a religious school but don’t try to skew sound science just to fit your religion.” [excerpt]

Leading Evolutionists have said that Evolution is a religion.

So you want your religion(TOE) taught in public school at tax payer expense, but if any taxpayer doesn't want their children being taught your religion, they have to keep paying taxes but opt out and spend MORE money to teach their children?

“I offer what I think is a good compromise – I’ll keep out me and my Priest and my kid’s science teacher out of your Sunday school class if you keep your Sunday school teacher and YEC Pastor out of my kid’s science class.” [excerpt]

For that compromise to be fair, your kid's taxpayer funded public school science class will have to became a privately funded science class.

Otherwise, its rank hypocrisy.
(aka, business as usual)

[GodGunsGuts]

You captured my own view EXACTLY.

[Fichori]

“And promised everyone that he would return 2000 years ago as a conqueror. Yeah I can see that that happened.” [excerpt]

What the !

“Elsie let me give you a clue. Elisha's bones didn't raise a dead man from the grave. Christ didn't rise from the dead and return 2000 years ago. Constantine the Emperor/Pope who put the Bible together was a cynical pagan. The Bible is a book of history mixed with myths, parables and stolen stories. ” [excerpt]

LeGrande! Git yer fuut outa yer maouth!


Christ did not promise to return 2000 years ago.

2000 years ago, He promised to return, but did not give the date.

Talk about opening your mouth and removing all doubt!

[tpanther]

Otherwise, its rank hypocrisy.

>>>>>>> In a nutshell it’s what this all boils down to.

[metmom]

And promised everyone that he would return 2000 years ago as a conqueror.

Oh He did? Where? Would you mind providing the evidence to support that?

[metmom]

You have to realize that once anyone gives any indication that they do not take the hardline evoatheist no God/ no intelligence allowed position, that they are automatically crammed by the FRevos into the YEC Bible literalist, geocentric, flat earther box that is used to portray anyone who doesn’t tow the evo party line as backwards ignorant knuckle draggers.

It’s the only way that they can begin to give themselves the appearance of respectability; by creating a false image of those who disagree with them.

It’s pretty sad the lengths they have to go to try to convince others to join their side.

[metmom]

In all his attempts to discredit Christianity, all he has done is revealed his breathtaking ignorance of Scripture.

He’s made a fool of himself on every thread he’s tried this on.

[tpanther]

I offer what I think is a good compromise – I’ll keep out me and my Priest and my kid’s science teacher out of your Sunday school class if you keep your Sunday school teacher and YEC Pastor out of my kid’s science class.

---

That sounds more than reasonable to me. I would only add that dissenting from darwin doesn’t automatically mean someone’s trying to force their religious beliefs on anyone.

So, along the same lines, how do feel about the ACLU calling a school board and threatening legal action if they don’t remove the word ‘Christmas’ from the school calendar?

(There indeed IS a bigger issue!)

[MrB]

This is exactly what’s been going on in schools,

any teacher that addresses the holes in Darwin

is targeted by an ACLU lawsuit.

[tpanther]

It’s comical to see their unobjectivity over science but it’s hysterical to see their fear and misunderstandings of Christianity displayed publically.

[tpanther]

Maybe I’m having an early onset of Alzheimer’s, but I can’t seem to remember one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable.

Can you?

---

To take it one step further, let’s examine what it HAS done:

Human classification as a great ape with no soul.

Not blaming darwinism but the cultists that have hijacked it, and run with it, and it surely doesn’t take long to see the deleterious effects!

[tpanther]

The Bible is a book of history mixed with myths, parables and stolen stories.

It appears this way when you don’t understand it.

[MrB]

Human classification as a great ape with no soul.

This viewpoint justifies abortion, euthenasia, and genocide. Those who are of little to no value to the greater, transcendent society may be purged with no moral consequences.

[js1138]

Maybe I’m having an early onset of Alzheimer’s, but I can’t seem to remember one, single, solitary scientific discovery or technological development, that has had a real impact (good or bad) on our every day lives, for which belief in Darwinian or neo-Darwinian theory was indispensable.

Genetic algorithms and genetic programming are a direct spinoff of the theory of evolution. Entire industries, including the management of the electric power grid, depend on the problem solving ability of RMNS algorithms. Genetic algorithms are the most efficient way to solve very complex problems like the salesman route proble. There are corporations that organize their route deliveries based on RMNS algorithms.

[MartyK]

Oh, felix culpa!

I’m so happy I apparently misunderstood the definition of evolution. So, it really has nothing to do with how cows and birds and humans came to be. Rather, it deals only with the many “flavors” we have of each type. I think some call this “micro-evolution”, and even IDers and creationists have no problem with it.

All is well after all, I guess.