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To: DelphiUser
As to your post(s) Utah Lighthouse ministry is an anti site. ... Their purpose is to destroy our religion, and you want to use them in a debate as a source to be debated? are you serious?

I have found Utah Lighthouse Ministry far more credible than the LDS Church

For example, on the matter of the First Vision, the Tanner's have documented with annotations direct from Mormon historical documents the nine different versions of the vision. You can review them at your convenience HERE, where you will see rather profound differences. You will also note the first account did not appear until 1830-31 – and the official account did not appear until 1838 – a full eighteen years after it purportedly happened and at the exact moment when Joseph Smith greatly needed a magnificent event to shore up his authority and silence critics.

Mark Hofmann was a documents forger who foisted several dozen fake documents onto Mormon Church Leadership. Hofmann's amazing discoveries were purchased by devout Mormons and the donated to the Church. Writings favorable to Mormonism were placed on prominent display – writings deemed damaging to the cause were secreted away.

Hofmann's most famous fabrication was the Salamander Letter. In this writing, supposedly by Book of Mormon Witness Martin Harris, a tenth version of the First Vision surfaced. Fortunately for the Mormon Church, the first account of the visitation was extended back in time a full five years to the mid-1820's. Unfortunately for the Church, in this telling Joseph was visited by an elf who took the form of a salamander.

Mormon leadership verified the authenticity of the letter, apparently relying in large part on the opinion of forensic documents examiners. Based on his vast knowledge of Mormonism, Gerald Tanner on the other hand immediately denounced the document as a fraud. Tanner was proven right.

The effects of the Salamander Letter haunt the Mormon Church to this day.

As can be seen in the photograph above, two Mormon Prophets, Spencer Kimball and Gordon Hinckley, were among the duped.

President Hinckley would later candidly admit:

I accepted [Hofmann] to come into my office on a basis of trust … I frankly admit that Hofmann tricked us. He also tricked experts from New York to Utah, however … I am not ashamed to admit that we were victimized. It is not the first time the Church has found itself in such a position. Joseph Smith was victimized again and again. The Savior was victimized. I am sorry to say that sometimes it happens. – Dew, S. (1996). Go Forward with Faith: The Biography of Gordon B. Hinckley. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, p. 432.

But according to LDS doctrine at the time, this was impossible.

In his February 26, 1980 speech at BYU titled Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, LDS President Ezra Taft Benson maintained the Mormon Church President spoke with inerrant authority on "any matter, temporal or spiritual ," was "not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time," and "would never lead the Church astray".

Following the Hofmann debacle, less than a decade after President Benson's pronouncement, an embarrassed Mormon Church was forced to proclaim:

Prophets are mortal men who have been ordained and chosen by God to be a mouthpiece for revelation and guidance, but that revelation only comes when God wills it, making it somewhat sporadic in both ancient and modern times. There is no expectation that every act, every decision, and every purchase by a prophet will be divinely and infallibly guided. As Joseph Smith said, "a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such." – Jeff Lindsay, The Salamander Letter and Mark Hofmann

The incident also led to the founding and naming of the Salamander Society, an organization founded by disgruntled Mormons for the purpose of Lampooning the LDS faith.

If you desire, I would be pleased to provide additional examples where the Tanner's were more truthful and/or accurate than LDS church leaders.

507 posted on 12/04/2008 9:47:27 AM PST by Zakeet (Be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for)
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To: Zakeet
As to your post(s) Utah Lighthouse ministry is an anti site.

HELLO!

The BIBLE is an ANTI-Mormon site!!

515 posted on 12/04/2008 11:47:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Zakeet
I have found Utah Lighthouse Ministry far more credible than the LDS Church



Yeah yeah, nine versions, all either by people who heard and wrote later or discarded attempts to record what he saw before he got a version that did it justice (the official version is here). It's funny, Joseph Smith had a third grade education, yet "wrote", OK Dictated the Book of Mormon in one shot with no corrections, should have gotten his account of the first vision down in one shot, and yet you bring up his youth an ignorance every opportunity. You know there are several versions of the Gettysburg address that were discarded, does that make you think less of that address?

The Salamander letter thing again? The tanners initially liked it and it is the source of all the "folk magic" and "gold hunter" crap being spouted today. The tanners even complained that placing it in a vault while it was studied was "suppression of evidence", now they claim they tried to warn us, LOL! and worse, you believe them!

Do I need to show instances from the bible where prophets were tricked? This is such a tired line of reasoning.

It's actually very simple, all people have to do is ask god as I have and they will know the truth without all this mumbo jumbo he said, she said crap that is going on on this thread.
576 posted on 12/05/2008 1:05:47 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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