Posted on 12/03/2008 4:59:24 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Do we need God in politics?
Washington Post columnist Kathleen Parker recently penned a provocative column titled "Giving Up on God," wherein she suggested that the Republican Party ditch G-O-D. The piece so rankled James Dobson (Ph.D. in divine insight) that he compared Parker to that seditious bum Benedict Arnold.
Among factions of conservatism, there is a general willingness to coexist and -- sporadically -- win elections. Dobson, conversely, employs a saintly litmus test that marginalizes large swaths of his own party. He has redefined "traditional values," an essential ingredient for Republican victory, to mean illogical rigidity.
Californians, Dobson rationalizes, proved that values voters still matter, because "many who pulled the lever for the 'change' (Obama) espoused also pulled it for the stability provided by marriage as recognized for millennia in all civilized societies."
Actually, if California voters proved anything, it is that voters don't feel the need to vote Republican, even if they happen to recognize the stability provided by the millennia-long need to be hassled by a clingy do-gooder from the opposite sex.
And despite perceptions, Barack Obama did not support gay marriage. In fact, few national Democrats of note explicitly back gay marriage -- notwithstanding their demonizing conservatives. Democrats have made social issues irrelevant by simply ignoring them. Abortion may elicit passionate quarrels among online commentators, but on the ground, policy has scarcely stirred in decades.
Those Californians who voted for Obama and also against gay marriage signaled that social issues are, at the very least, of secondary political importance. Nationally, polls ranging from USA Today/Gallup to CBS News/New York Times to NBC News/Wall Street Journal to Fox News/Opinion Dynamics bear this out. Factors such as "improving the economy," "creating jobs" and "stabilizing the nation's financial institutions" were on the tops of voters' minds this time around, while values issues brought in the rear with other subjects Americans pretend to care about, such as "helping the environment."
Sure, there are citizens who oppose gay marriage not out of bigotry or irrational loathing but out of a sense of tradition and faith. The problem is that the Dobson wing hinders Republicans from offering any feasible counter-solutions. Dobson opposes not only man-on-man matrimony but also civil unions. He opposes adoption for gay couples. Let's face it; he opposes the existence of gays.
Good luck with that.
These are not so much ideologically "conservative" positions as they are moral injunctions. Dobson may grouse in conservative jargon about a court undermining the will of the people. But does anyone believe that Dobson will pound the dais similarly when judicial activism falls his way -- as it has on issues ranging from free speech to medical marijuana?
Aren't Republicans also (hypothetically) the party of limited government and individual freedom?
Dobson claims that Parker and other secular conservatives are trying to marginalize Christian voters, when, in effect, he has it backward. Poor Rudy Giuliani once dressed up as a woman. And Mitt Romney, yeah, he was born into a cult. And this one was divorced too many times, and the other one well, pleasing James Dobson can be a holy hassle.
No, evangelicals are not "ailing" the Republican Party, as Parker contends, but the acceptance of the traditional values wing should not be a prerequisite for being a "real" conservative.
Unless Jesus is going to rectify the stock market, Republicans are in for a lonely ride. And as long as the Dobson wing fools itself into believing political fortunes can be resuscitated by ruining Billy and Bobby's honeymoon, they are in for a decade-long surprise.
Certainly the DOI is legally binding- If it is not, we are still a possession of the King of England. Further, as I said upthread, the Articles of Confederation assume all debts and obligations that came before it, and the Constitution does likewise. As the first legal document assembled by the United States of America, the Declaration of Independence holds primacy and precedence over all other articles written.
And this makes you irreverent?
We are all considerably more irreverent today than our forefathers were, and in every respect.
It would be nice if we could say it and it would be so, but it isn't and won't be. The 1950's are never going to be revisited. If that is the minimum condition for restoration of the US, then no restoration is possible.
Then no restoration is possible, because that is "restoration" by definition... putting it back the way it was.
However, as I see it, God will be fine if we just get back around to believing, and acting like it. Perhaps that is being too optimistic.
Jehovah is a jealous God. You suppose He will be content to see His Name removed from the public square. I contend that He will not. As Bob Dylan said, "You have to serve somebody." That goes for nations too. His Commandments torn from in front of our courthouses is no small thing.
Anyway, as the electorate is about 180 million strong, your block of 30 million is a sizable but non-controlling piece of the pie. And this is not by accident.
30m is also on the smallish sized turnout. As I said, If the Christian right gets a bee in their bonnet, that number can double. That is a controlling piece of the pie. It is also the only appreciable voting bloc with it's own organized money sources, it's own media outlets (which dwarf everyone else), and it's own networking directly to it's grassroots, without reliance on major media or DNC/RNC whatsoever. The Republicans thwart them at their peril, as this election, and many others have proven.
Its folks like you, who propose to enshrine Christianity in the governance of this great country who supply all of the support necessary for the march of Secular Humanism.
No. I do not believe the federal government has the authority to tell my state, or my county what to do in regard to religion. I am all *for* removing secular humanism from the federal level, and allowing the states to govern themselves, just as it used to be.
I am not suggesting ANY federal action other than these:
None of these are unreasonable. None of these are unconstitutional. All of these are mindful of federalism, and in defense of same, and all of these are truly libertarian and Conservative positions.
You overreach and you get nothing. This is the way it goes.
We didn't overreach- We were betrayed. That is the way it goes.
I propose to you.. its God in people's hearts and not in government. God welcome in any building in the Country but no one's interpretation of God's will in control.
No. We will not have God's Name stripped from our money, and His Name and Words defaced from our public buildings in order to satisfy some inane politically correct policy. We will not have our good common law infected with Sharia law and papal inquests, and world courts because someone else's moral sense must be accommodated. That is where your way invariably has to end, just as much as every other liberalization does. There is right and wrong, and there was an American sense of that, and it was correct. There was Justice here. There is no more. That should tell you all you need to know.
Sanction is given by the indwelling Spirit to the believer.
Sanction is given to the Church by the presence of the Spirit. The age and the patronage of the church is irrelevant. If the Spirit is there, He is evident. If He is evident, the Church is sanctioned. It is that simple.
America's Independent Party started early this summer and is already 3rd largest in the nation, outstripping both the Libertarians and the Constitution parties.
There is only one way and that is the Republican party.
There is never only one way. Especially when that way involves repeated betrayal and undercutting.
We must hang together. We need every number we can get. We simply have to outnumber them
So that we may elect our very own liberals to destroy the nation and do the work of our enemies? I think not. The agreement between the Conservatives and the Republican Party fell within the defined lines of Conservative values.
The Republicans have made it perfectly clear that they have no intention of staying within those boundaries, and have no real desire to inherently support those values. In twenty seven years there has been little more than lip service given to Reaganism. For the most part, the Reaganites have been deliberately suppressed. It is time to found a party born of those hardy principles, and destroy these vapid pretenders.
How is the AIP the third largest party? According to the election results in November, the Libertarian and Constitution parties presidential candidates came in third and fifth.
By actual registrations- that is their claim.
Do you have a link?
FR: "IS 2012 going to be the year of a 3rd party revolution?" Post #20
@EV,
"Momma Republican" is having trouble believing the AIP is now the 3rd largest party by voter registration. Would you care to help her out w/ that?
Our fast start in terms of voter registrations is because of the affiliation of California’s American Independent Party with the new national America’s Independent Party.
AIP voter registrations in CA grew more than 11% since the new affiliation. I believe the latest number is somewhere around 370,000 registered AIP voters in the state.
Unfortunately not. It is a historic and grandly important document, but it caries no legal weight whatsoever.
General Cornwallis's surrender ended the Revolutionary War and the Treaty of Paris was signed soon after. The Congress of Confederation ratified the Articles of Confederation and the United States was on its way.
On the irreverent.. I was cracking on you for burning up one of the Biblical names of God. While saying folks wouldn't write it out of reverence.
Jehovah is a jealous God. You suppose He will be content to see His Name removed from the public square. I contend that He will not.
I personally have a hard time attributing jealousy to God, but he certainly only has so much patience for idiocy.
30m is also on the smallish sized turnout. As I said, If the Christian right gets a bee in their bonnet, that number can double.
So you want to be taken seriously?
No. I do not believe the federal government has the authority to tell my state, or my county what to do in regard to religion. They don't and they never have. But, the people who live in your state won't go along with your plan. And as I said. The "This is a Christian Nation" crap just won't float. Even with most committed Christians because they quickly become aware of sectarian strife causing what seemed like an easy agreement to descend into the 100 years war.
There is no strive like sectarian strife because it take having loved someone to really really hate them.
We didn't overreach- We were betrayed.
Yea right. We are walking farther and farther into Tin Hat territory. You seem like a nice person. Don't get lost in black and white explanations of the events of history.
No. We will not have God's Name stripped from our money, and His Name and Words defaced from our public buildings in order to satisfy some inane politically correct policy. We will not have our good common law infected with Sharia law and papal inquests, and world courts because someone else's moral sense must be accommodated.
Well, follow my advice and the things you worry about will never occur, attempt to fight this battle from a minority position and watch the worst you can imagine occur.
I was trying to share that your point is kind of lame and easily misconstrued. I am not a Christian never have been never will be, and there are plenty like me around here.. And if someone puts on their cross and starts trying to make that the issue.. they better come armed for battle.
Free Republic does have basic assumptions of who is here.. and this aligns nicely with certain elements of the Evangelical, Catholic and other Christian communities. We share these values and a love of this great country. But, Christian anything is not a requirement. It is just a point of sharing among many who share their opinions here.
With time, you see this. That the loudmouthed fools do not carry the conversation, they just waste your time if you read their stuff.
Anyway, you have to live through one of Jim Rob's purges to know what is and isn't a defining characteristic of the denizens of FR.
Though I don't know the man we could be best friends. Many who lived through the Rudy purge.. were horrified, that Jim couldn't live with folks saying we have to accept a RINO candidate this cycle.. and in the end. He was right. John McCain for all of his heroics was known to all of us as a loose cannon on the Deck. If it weren't for Sarah Palin, he would have lost by 14 percent.
Ultimately some Conservatives believed that he would be so eager to cross the isle to the Democrats that he would enact their agenda and pass the blame to the Republicans when it all goes horribly wrong. They believed letting the Dem's own it all would be a path back to a true Conservative majority rather than a Rockefeller Republican country club of me to RINO's that replaced the 1994 revolution.
Of course it does, which is why the legal tangent of "privacy" had to be created and ridiculous definitions of "where life begins" invented- Because if Life itself was assaulted directly, the assault would certainly fail.
General Cornwallis's surrender ended the Revolutionary War and the Treaty of Paris was signed soon after. The Congress of Confederation ratified the Articles of Confederation and the United States was on its way.
Yes, I know. And the Articles assumed the debts and obligations prior to it's creation. The Constitution did likewise. Each assumes the debts and obligations before it.
Besides, without rights existing inherently in every man, endowed upon him by God, held inviolate and inalienable from his person, our Constitution and it's protections are utterly worthless. For in ceding the ground established in the DOI, our rights are then merely designated by our government. What the government has given, the government can take away. The Declaration is the very foundation of our freedom.
I personally have a hard time attributing jealousy to God [...]
*raised eyebrows* I take it you haven't read His Book then...
(e-Sword: KJV) Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Of course that particular passage is part of the 10 commandments, which you used to be able to read just about anywhere.
So you want to be taken seriously?
If the Christian right alone is capable of generating 60m votes (30m extra to normal turnout, that is nearly 1/3 of the electorate), and Conservatives together have proven that when properly addressed, they are an absolutely unstoppable force, why is it that the Republicans spend all their time trying desperately to keep them out of power? Why cater to the "middle" instead, when the force of popular vote lies within your own base?
But, the people who live in your state won't go along with your plan. And as I said. The "This is a Christian Nation" crap just won't float.
Did you happen to notice my state? Montana would have those 10 Commandments back up in a minute, in front of every county courthouse. Prayer in school, discipline in school, Pledge of Allegiance... No Problem. Liberal crap in school like sensitivity training, and putting rubbers on cucumbers, right out the window. As for God in the public square, That's still here, even yet, as it is most everywhere in the Rockies, the Desert, the Midwest and the South; at least in the small towns where the liberals still haven't won a damn thing.
Wanna see how people feel? just get real school vouchers passed and watch what happens.
We didn't overreach- We were betrayed.
Yea right. We are walking farther and farther into Tin Hat territory.
Oh really? Why don't you just tick off for me all the thing the Republicans have done for the Christian Right in the last 27 years? And for the Conservatives at large for that matter?
Well, follow my advice and the things you worry about will never occur, attempt to fight this battle from a minority position and watch the worst you can imagine occur.
Are you kidding? A good portion of it has already occurred, or the groundwork for it laid (and not defended against), under a majority Republican Congress with a Republican administration. Your alliance does me no good at all. There is no difference, with or without it. That is precisely why I am no longer a Republican, and why no one I know is a Republican any longer, all of us loyal from the days of Reagan, too.
I believe that human nature is human nature. Suppose you were able to grow the API by numbers large enough to eventually win an election. First, where are you going to get the people? I allege they must come from the Republican party or the current independents or perhaps a few CPs. There is no other place. You can't make more people.
So you're right back to where you started. You might feel better that you have a new name but you still have the same people with their same flaws.
In the mean time, our power and strength has been diluted to where we are now that the leftists are almost being left unchecked. We may have nothing left.
We have to find a way to stop these evil, destructive forces in this country. It will take all of us.
The Republican party is built from the bottom up. We need more numbers at the bottom.
Thank you for the Yeats quotation. That was nice.
Sorta kinda maybe......, but no. Amendment 9 of the United States Constitution explicitly states "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." The problem here is that the Constitution ACKNOWLEDGES that there are rights not so enumerated in the Constitution, without spelling out what they are. The DOI, in fact, enumerates some of those rights. The Constitution enshrines them in law.
It is true that the DOI is not intended to be a "legal" document. It is a "moral" document, enumerating our rights, how those rights have been violated and justifying our rebellion against tyranny. In that sense, you are correct in that it is not intended to be a basis for enumerated legal boundaries. However, it DOES provide the moral basis for the legal boundaries upon which the Constitution rests. Because of that, it can be, and has been, cited as the basis for legal rights.
The foundations of the AIP are founded in Reagan Conservatism. The people who founded it believe in it's founding principles. That makes it wholly different than the Republicans, or any other party, and ultimately desirable for that reason.
First, where are you going to get the people? I allege they must come from the Republican party [...] There is no other place. You can't make more people.
Well for starters, there is the 30% the Republicans have lost (including myself), most of whom are disaffected Conservatives, I would wager. Next, add up the attrition experienced prior to the wholesale abandonment over Bush43 part 2, like the 8-11% lost in 06 for instance, and it turns out quite a bit of the Right is already other-than-Republican anyway.
Secondly, Reaganism will make it's own voters- Yes we can make more people. There are so few people engaged in the political process, one can always gather from those who are non-participating if one can strike them with a message they believe in. *Nothing* in modern history has had the impact of Reaganism on the electorate. It is Americana. People will come to it if it is heard.
In the mean time, our power and strength has been diluted to where we are now that the leftists are almost being left unchecked. We may have nothing left.
Your power and strength is diluted because your leadership is in league with the left. Conservatism cannot live with Globalism. Conservatives don't vote for Socialists. A house divided cannot stand. The Republican Party does not even defend the things we believe in, much less promote them.
We have to find a way to stop these evil, destructive forces in this country. It will take all of us.
The last time I looked, the means of stopping evil did not include collusion with it.
The Republican party is built from the bottom up. We need more numbers at the bottom.
I remain unconvinced. Republicanism is worthless. It is Conservatism that I endorse. That endorsement, as I said, to include my money and my time, will probably go to the AIP, where it will be both appreciated and effective in promoting Reagan Conservatism.
In doing so, I help to insure that there will always be a true Conservative before you all for your conscience to ponder. Not that y'all will do so. Lord knows, pragmatism governs Republicans anymore. But there will no longer be an excuse when the RP offers up a RINO again and everyone is wishing they had a better candidate to vote for...
Because there will always be a Reagan Conservative there to vote for, just like there was this year, in the lion's share of states. I think that is an excellent idea. Sooner or later, the Republicans will disintegrate, and a new, Conservative party will assume it's erstwhile role.
Why do you think the AIP can do something the CP was not able to do?
As a Reagan Conservative, I was unable to support the CP because of their position on the GWOT. I really did not pay any attention to them beyond that point, because I will not support a platform or a candidate who cannot embrace all three pillars of Conservatism. Their passive stance, especially in the face of open aggression disqualifies them wholly.
Any party that is divisive among the ranks of Conservatives is not going to get the Reagan Conservative vote. That is a big deal, and is the primary cause of failure in the CP and the Republican parties.
This "policy" is a bush-hog of murderous slaughter that has been churning innocent blood for 35 years. It, more than anything else, has made us who we are, what we are and where we are. 50+ million American people who should be alive but aren't, are "scarcely stirring" but their blood continuously cries out to God. And who will save us from
</passionate quarrel>
Libery comes from God. So does government. The sin that is in every one of us is our worst enemy.
Oh Lord, give us liberty from our sin first and then let all the other blessings of liberty follow.
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