Posted on 04/29/2009 6:49:17 AM PDT by seatrout
Large corporations prefer to use H-1B visas to hire foreign engineers and computer technicians. H-1B workers increased threefold during the Clinton administration, and CEOs are constantly demanding that the number be raised or even unlimited.
Large corporations prefer H-1B foreigners because they work for lower wages with fewer rights. A recent study by researchers at top business schools reported that H-1B visas depress wages for software engineers and programmers by as much as 6 percent.
The cumulative effect, as described by another study, depresses wages even more. Many U.S. engineers even lost their jobs just after they were required to train their foreign replacements.
The Americans hardest hit by H-1B visas, according to these researchers, are recent college graduates and those who want to change jobs. One of the reasons why big corporations prefer to hire H-1Bers is that foreign workers are restrained, almost like indentured servants, from changing jobs and competing with their original employer.
Americans used indentured services in the 1600s when plantation workers were brought to Virginia to work for seven years in exchange for a free voyage to the New World. Later, this practice was supplanted by African slavery.
That's certainly not a model to imitate today. H-1B visas disrupt the free enterprise system that has yielded tremendous wealth to America and the world.
(Excerpt) Read more at humanevents.com ...
That's not how it works. Although you can cherry pick a few cases, H-1Bs are not usually the best and the brightest, they are usually the cheapest. You have a leftist, destroy and loot your fellow American attitude.
A leftist destroy and loot attitude? You’re a know nothing moron, and you can kiss my _____________.
My experience has been, the Indian programmers are ok at programming, but they don’t understand the business. The business users have to repeat things over and over again, and then they still get it wrong.
In my book, what we call a “programmer” today, should also be a capable business analyst. I won’t hire a programmer that doesn’t have business analyst skills.
Indian programmers are far better for being on time, following design guidelines, documentation, etc....also absolutely correct.
However (and you knew there was a 'however' coming.....)
My experience with any Indian workers - programmers, helpdesk, etc - is that so long as you "stick to the script" and tell them exactly what is desired, you won't find a better bunch of employees anywhere. Unfortunately, as soon as there's even a minor deviation...even so much as asking "well, what do you think?" ....forget it.
So long as my job requires independent thought and creativity (it does), I'm not overly worried about the prospect of being outsourced. However, the kid in my department who checks backups and does data restores....stuff that could be scripted in a day or two of documentation and training....I'd be worried if I was him. Particularly since he thinks that he's the only one who can do it, and doesn't have a whole lot of initiative to take on other projects.
I have programming work done regularly by freelancers.
US-based programmers are overpriced and do incomplete work, on balance. My direct experience is that a domestic programmer is an underachiever, who will deliver an even amount of results and excuses.
I have hired programmers in India, Pakistan, and Nigeria - all did outstanding, complete work quickly. No excuses from them. My direct experience has been excellent. I use them more consistently - and reliably - than any US based programmer.
This whole thing is being blown out of proportion anyway. People have been running around with their hair on fire about this since there have been immigrants. I'm an engineering student. Many of my friends are engineering students, or already in various industries. If, in our collective experience, there is not a mass exodus of engineering jobs to other countries, it's probably not happening.
I can only tell you about the cases I know about. I know my partner does a lot of H1-B visas for very bright people who are just the sort we want to take from other countries. I'm sure there are companies out there just looking for the cheapest professional workers they can get with H1-B visas. There probably is room for reforming the system. I don't think we should stop trying to recruit the best and brightest from around the world though.
“You have a leftist, destroy and loot your fellow American attitude.”
That was absolutely uncalled for and it was a cowardly thing to say anonymously through the Internet. If you want to meet me somewhere and say things like that to my face I will gladly oblige you.
Many countries have cheap labor. What fueled America's dominance is the huge wave of new technology that resulted from investments for WWII and the Cold War. That enabled greater automation and new quality of life products such as jet aircraft, computers, atomic power, new materials, GPS, the internet. Easy access to cheap labor is actually a hindrance to improving the quality of life in America.
We are on the cusp of the robotics age that would be further along if we didn't keep importing so much cheap labor. If you are an engineering student, robotics is a promising direction, however most of the cutting edge development will be DoD related. I'm guessing from your pro-foreigner and ambivalent-America bias that you might have a hard time getting an American security clearance.
How much leeway did they have? As in, did you give them a complete set of specifications, outputs, etc etc and say "write this"? Or, were they encouraged to "think outside of the box"?
I likely wasn't very clear in my post - my primary complaint with any outsourced work, regardless of the company, nationality, etc - has been an inability to improvise. That's a problem with me; frequently the very clients that I'm working with do not know what they themselves want.
So, to be specific, in my experience the statement, "I want X Y and Z, nothing more, nothing less.", works very well with outsourced employees.
However, if I say "I'd like something sort of like - but not exactly like - this, with a few changes to be determined later." ....forget it.
I’d agree with that - my jobs were very specific tasks with a complete set of specs and expectations. I was open to suggestions and input in every case.
The thing is, domestic freelancers and outsourced freelancers all had the same types of jobs (and in some cases, the same jobs), and the outsourced talent did much, much better at a much better price.
Let's see ... As an engineer am I benefitted more by having the wages of Indian engineers rise by 50% or by having the wages of the UAW rise by 50%?
I don't recall seeing any benefit to me of the UAW wages rising to $70 per hour. But as Indian engineering salaries rise, the outsourcing of engineering jobs will decline.
MY tribe consists of intelligent, educated people who rely on their merits to improve themselves and who do not view collectivism as a benefit of any kind.
I agree with you on that, but H1-Bs are temporary guest workers, and that's not how getting the best is done. My experience is that most H1-Bs are cheaper, not better. If you need brain surgery are you going to seek out an H1-B guest worker because they are the best in the world?
Now you are inviting me to duke it out like in high school. Your anti-American attitude, high school vocabulary, mannerisms, and New York Times talking points, all indicate leftism. Enjoy your stay here while it lasts. Hopefully some seeds will take root.
I would hardly call myself pro-foreigner; I’m just saying that this is being blown way out of proportion. If there were thousands of engineers out a job because of globalization, we would probably hear about it from them. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t pay attention to the trend, I’m just of the opinion that ‘the end is not near’, so to speak.
And security clearance aside, there are also a number of applications for robotics in the biotech industry, which may turn out to be more lucrative than the DoD contracts— the government can cut spending on defense, but there will always be a surplus of sick people, and people willing to shell out a substantial amount of money to take care of them.
My tribe consists of America. Being loyal to a tribe is not collectivism, it's natural human behavior selected for on the battlefield. If American engineers and auto workers are relatively expensive, use technology to leverage their productivity. Importing cheap guest workers is a short-term cheat and long-term mistake. Automation and American quality of life won't progress if we keep importing cheap workers. You don't win by importing cheaper teammates, you win by supporting the team you're on.
Excellent points. Thanks.
The Obama administration is proof positive that I am not a member of whatever "team" they represent.
I happen to be FOR the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, as amended. As far as I can tell, the UAW and other collectives would use our Constitution as toilet paper.
If there is an Indian or Chinese engineer anywhere on earth who believes in the principles of liberty and individual responsibility, then THEY are my team mates.
As Limbaugh, I believe, said, I hope the Obama administration fails if their mission is to substitute socialism for freedom. So, whose team are you on?
In the rigid environment that you describe, I'd believe that.
Wish my job was a little less freewheeling at times. We just had a client add "a little" to their data set. "How much is a little?", I replied, wincing already.
"Oh, maybe 20 or 30 Terabytes. Certainly not more than 50TB, but we really won't know until it all gets received, now will we?"
Everytime I deal with this specific problem (it happens all too frequently), I get the mental image of me sitting on top of an overstuffed suitcase, with things hanging out the sides, bouncing up and down, trying to get it to shut.
You should take a lesson from King Canute and stop putting the blame on policies when there are basic underlying realities that have to be faced. The tide comes in, regardless of whether you pile sandbags in front to make it flood violently or let it come in naturally and unimpeded.
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