A Wicked Deed in Wichita - A Test for the Pro-Life Movement

Christian Post ^ | 6/1/09 | R. Albert Mohler, Jr

[wardaddy]

John Brown like Nate Turner murdered innocents to make a point.

Tiller was far from innocent.

Consider me anti-abortion, you pro-life folks while well meaning and God bless you have an agenda of universal forgivenss and life equivocation that I cannot support living and experiencing life as I have.

An unborn baby’s life to me is far more precious than Tiller or just about anything. A culture that kills it’s babies is savage and will endure God’s wrath in time as surely as the Sun rises in the east.

But good luck to all of you. I never really considered myself as being distinct from the pro-life movement but I am very much so.

I study history and have lived in hard parts of the world.

What I see here reminds me of what someone just freepmailed me.

“Like Quakers traveling through Injun Country armed only with a Bible”

count me out...but God bless all of you...I know you mean well.

[wagglebee]

I really don’t think Congress would go along with it and the military would never do it without Congressional approval.

Keep in mind that the Civil War was very unpopular among a huge number of northerners, those that did support it mainly did so over slavery.

If you read the various articles of secession, you will notice that the legal arguments were poorly made (especially when compared to the Declaration of Independence). Hopefully Texas and other states would make better arguments this time around. Unless the Supreme Court ruled nearly unanimously that secession was unconstitutional I don’t think Obama (or any other president) would even consider military action (also, in 1860, Lincoln was not burdened with having a huge portion of the military overseas).

The ONLY legal hangup I see is the wording of the Articles of Confederation and Constitution. The Articles of Confederation states there is a “perpetual Union” and the Constitution clarifies that it is to be a “more perfect Union”, so the argument could be made that the Union was ALWAYS intended to be perpetual. However, there are counter-arguments to this, the Articles of Confederation was only among the thirteen original States and Texas was not one of them. Also, adoption of the Constitution was voluntary (though it could be said that this was the voluntary acceptance of a perpetual Union).

Also, keep in mind that 150 years ago, there was no TV, radio or internet, those in the North who weren’t in the Army (outside of a few areas in Maryland and Pennsylvania) NEVER witnessed the horrors of the war, it would be very different today.

[wagglebee]

Which is the greater injustice: secession or abortion?

The GREATEST injustice in American history is abortion. Slavery is second, but it is not on the level of abortion because slaves were seldom killed.

[evangmlw]

God says that “ALL MURDERERS,” will be judged as so. No man has the right to MURDER another. By the way, I am an ultra conservative pastor of a Baptist church. If John Brown committed “cold blooded murder,” and never repented, he faced the judgment of God, and went into eternity unjustified.

[wagglebee]

Tiller was far from innocent.

Consider me anti-abortion, you pro-life folks while well meaning and God bless you have an agenda of universal forgivenss and life equivocation that I cannot support living and experiencing life as I have.

An unborn baby’s life to me is far more precious than Tiller or just about anything. A culture that kills it’s babies is savage and will endure God’s wrath in time as surely as the Sun rises in the east.

I have read where anyone in the pro-life movement has advocated forgiveness for Tiller or indicated that he is not guilty of the murder of thousands. What is being said is that killing him was wrong even though it will undoubtedly save thousands of lives.

[wagglebee]

Great post!

[wardaddy]

Wagglebee...I respect you greatly but I have had folks here tell me Tiller's life was a precious as the babies he murdered and that he deserved prayer same as Hitler and Stalin...and other sorts of platitudes that I am not for whatsoever.

The media will use this but instead of recoiling and fretting we should take the opportunity to make it loud and clear just what Tiller had done to over 30,000 babies like Jeff Head has done in his posts to put some perspective onto this angst over what we all figure would happen one day actually happening..

There are pro-lifers who think graphic pics hurt the cause.

I disagree.

I know I it's wrong to kill unlawfully but I have no sympathy nor do I wish God's mercy for Tiller.

And I'm not convinced this hurt the quest to end infanticide.

Give our new demographics we have hard time ahead and stopping infanticide will be a crucible.

I will confess that I am a rather hardened getting old man but I still tear up quietly at funerals of loved ones...

[hinckley buzzard]

Count me out.

1, 2, 3-- you're out. Go peddle it somewhere else. We have enough goofballs of our own without you showing up. Thanks for playing tho, newbie troll. Now GIT!

[wagglebee]

Wagglebee...I respect you greatly but I have had folks here tell me Tiller's life was a precious as the babies he murdered and that he deserved prayer same as Hitler and Stalin...and other sorts of platitudes that I am not for whatsoever.

My only prayer was that as he lay dying he repented. But I do not think he had the opportunity or would have taken it if he did.

The media will use this but instead of recoiling and fretting we should take the opportunity to make it loud and clear just what Tiller had done to over 30,000 babies like Jeff Head has done in his posts to put some perspective onto this angst over what we all figure would happen one day actually happening..

Not just what Tiller did, but the fact that over 3500 babies are murdered each day in America.

There are pro-lifers who think graphic pics hurt the cause.

I disagree.

I have often posted such images, though I realize they offend some and I do think that parents need to prepare children before they see them.

And I'm not convinced this hurt the quest to end infanticide.

Give our new demographics we have hard time ahead and stopping infanticide will be a crucible.

It is THE defining issue of our times. The economy will sort itself out eventually, we will defeat terrorism just as we did fascism and communism, but abortion is tragedy we brought upon ourselves.

[Jeff Head]

Well, at the risk of having another post pulled, I will post what I have postd elsewhere regarding this.

[WARNING, GRAPHIC PHOTO TO FOLLOW THAT IS THE TRUTH OF ABORTION]

Pardon the length of this, and some of its directness...but, IMHO, it needs saying and contemplating.

We live in an era where a most violent, brutal, sick, depraved atrocity is being accepted by far too many in our society as "ok" and common place, because they have been protected by corrupt law. I speak of the atrocity and genocide of abortion.

Sooner or later, the scales of history, nature, and nature's God will be balanced and corrected on this matter.

God in Heaven will not stand forever by and allow the unmitigatd slaughter and genocide of his most innocent children to go unanswered.

We MUST continue to do all in our power to turn this around...but every day we are not successful in so doing, another approximately 3,300 living souls are butchered...and I mean butchered in the most littoral sense.

Most of us are not acquanited with the extent or graphic nature of the butchery that is going on in American, protected by corrupt law. Most do not want to be acquainted with it. Pardon the graphic nature of the following photo...but this is what is going on every day, thousands of times a day, across this nation:

That is the gruesome truth of what is occuring. App. 3,300 a day, app. 1.2 million per year. Over 50 million to date. And people need to see it and look long and hard at it,as difficult as that is to do.

Dr. Tiller, who was shot and killed on May 31, 2009, trafficed in that type of gruesome death and profited from it. He was worse than Dr. Mengle or Goebbles of Germany. He advertised for it, he revelled in it.

Some people say that there are only perhaps three valid reasons to commit violence against others:

1) In a justified war.
2) To protect your own life and liberty, or that of those dear to you.
3) To protect your property.

For years the Islamic Jihadists were at war with the United States and we did not treat it as such. It took a dastardly major attack to swing the pendulm...and then it only took effect for a relatiely short while.

I fear greatly for our nation when I realize that not even the gruesome death of 50 million innocent children has produced in ourselves as a society the will to FORCE this evil to stop. Perhaps we should realize that the culture of death has been at war with us for over 45 years...and the death toll has been staggering.

When will be the proper time to respond tpo this genocide with force? After 65 millionare dead? After 100 millon are dead?

Or perhaps it will be after they open live-abortion centers all across this nation where people can bring in their unwanted children who are mentally challeged, physically challenged, or just too inconvienent up to 24 months to be "disposed of". Will that be the right time?

Don't kid yourself, there are forces and voices in this country pushing towards that type of thing now.

We should all ask ourslves these questions because it is the stark reality of what is going on...and then seriously think about and pray about the answers.

Clearly, in Nazi Germany, in the 1930s, the time to stop what that culture of death produced there was long before the concentration and death camps wer created.

Well, we have death clinics already in place all over this land, and have had for decades.

And do not try and imagine that some how it is not the same. What we are seeing done here under color of law, IMHO, is even worse. Slaughtering the most defenseless souls amongst us, those with no choice whatsoever, and no ability to avoid it. Can't run, can't hide...can only utter a silent scream within the very wound of their mother as they are literally ripped asunder. Unprotected by their very mothers, their fathers (which are not even known in far too many cases), their kin, or the Doctors who took an oath to protect life.

I pray we can halt this genocide and slaughter in the court of public opinion and at the ballot box.

But our forefather's hoped the same thing over slavery (on both sides) until the bloodletting came. I fear God in Heaven will already hold us all, our entire society, reponsible for the magnitude of this evil.

I know this...if it ever does come to a war over this issue, I know excatly which side I will stand and fight with.

If, God forid, it does come to that...and with the evil depravity that has gotten ahold of so many hearts amongst on this issue (like,"I don't want my children punished with a baby."), I fear it may well.

Then like John Brown, we may find that the individual, who "went to war" and killed Tiller at a time when it was clerly illegal to do so (though it is legal for the butchers to rip those children apart for profit each and evvery day), was on the right side of h

[Toespi]

Heartbreak. But often, the truth is just that. Every woman considering abortion should be required to see the truth.

[Jeff Head]

Thatghastly picture is worth 60,000...no, 50 million words.

We dare not hide our heads in the sand or cringe away from the God awful truth of this genocide.

Our Savior sees and experiences the gruesome, awful nature of each horrid death of each of these, His little ones...and we would call ourselves by His name.

Tiller, who himself killed tens of thousands of little fully formed babies like that picture depicts, will now murder no more of them.

[wagglebee]

Excellent post!

I cannot and will not support vigilantism against abortionists, but something MUST be done and it must be done QUICKLY.

As you stated, it is no longer abortion that we are fighting against, the culture of death has made great headway imposing euthanasia under the guise of “dignity” and as the Baby Boomers (who are the greatest defenders of abortion) age, they will soon discover that they are about to become the victims.

[xzins]

Actually, yes, on a side trip going to a staff ride of the Antietam battlefield. Harper’s Ferry was another of those occasions when the brilliance of Thomas Stonewall Jackson was on full display.

BTW, abortion is worse than slavery, imho. With slavery there’s always the hope of freedom. When you kill someone, freedom, justice, etc., all become moot points.

[Theophilus]

John Brown also died and stood before God. I'm a little curious to know how you think he was judged? What was the verdict?

It's doubtless that John Brown deserved to go to hell. Yet if he is found in heaven, it will certainly be by the mercy, grace and justification of Jesus Christ. Jackson prayed for him. I wonder if Brown offered a prayer for those VMI cadets that he faced who were very shortly to enter hell on earth.

The Execution of John Brown. Eyewitness account
Thomas J. Jackson ("Stonewall") to his wife, Mary Anna Jackson
1859 December 2

The original letter is located in the Dabney-Jackson collection at the Library of Virginia. It has been widely reprinted; there are minor editorial variations among different published versions, though no substantive differences. For one published source, see Life and Letters of Thomas J. Jackson by Mary Anna Jackson (NY. Harper. 1892).

---

December 2
John Brown was hung today at about 11 1/2 A.M. He behaved with unflinching firmness. The arrangements were well made under the direction of Col. Smith. Brown's wife visited him last evening. The body is to be delivered to her. The gibbet was south east of the town in a large field. Brown rode on the head of his coffin, from his prison to the place of execution. The coffin was of black walnut, enclosed in a poplar box of the same shape as the coffin.

He was dressed in carpet slippers of predominating red, white socks, blacks pants, black frock coat, black vest & black slouch hat. Nothing around his neck beside his shirt collar. The open wagon in which he rode was strongly guarded on all sides. Capt. Williams, formerly one of the assistants of the Institute, marched immediately in front of the wagon. The jailer and high sheriff and several others rode in the wagon with the prisoner.

Brown had his arms tied behind him, & ascended the scaffold with apparent cheerfulness. After reaching the top of the platform, he shook hands with several who were standing around him. The sheriff placed the rope around his neck, then threw a white cap over his head & asked him if he wished a signal when all should be ready---to which he replied that it made no difference, provided he was not kept waiting too long.

In this condition he stood on the trap door, which was supported on one side by hinges, and on the other (south side) by a rope, for about 10 minutes, when Col. S. told the Sheriff "all is ready," which apparently was not comprehended by the Sheriff, and the Col. had to repeat the order, when the rope was cut by a single blow, and Brown fell through about 25 inches, so as to bring his knees on a level with the position occupied by his feet before the rope was cut. With the fall his arms below the elbow flew up, hands clenched, & his arms gradually fell by spasmodic motions---there was very little motion of his person for several minutes, after which the wind blew his lifeless body to & fro.

His face, upon the scaffold, was turned a little east of south, and in front of him were the cadets commanded by Major Gilham. My command was still in front of the cadets, all facing south. One howitzer I assigned to Mr. Truheart on the left of the cadets, and with the other I remained on the right. Other troops occupied different positions around the scaffold, and altogether it was an imposing but very solemn scene.

I was much impressed with the thought that before me stood a man, in the full vigor of health, who must in a few minutes be in eternity. I sent up a petition that he might be saved. Awful was the thought that he might in a few minutes receive the sentence "Depart ye wicked into everlasting fire." I hope that he was prepared to die, but I am very doubtful--he wouldn't have a minister with him.

His body was taken back to the jail, and at 6 p.m. was sent to his wife at Harper's Ferry. When it reached Harper's Ferry the coffin was opened and his wife saw the body---the coffin was again opened at the depot, before leaving for Baltimore, lest there should be an imposition.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[dixiechick2000]

Wagglebee...I respect you greatly, too.
You’re passion for life is on proud display throughout FR, and I admire your dedication.

I don’t endorse murder.
However, there are evil people in this world.
Tiller was given a wonderful gift, and he abused it in the most gross manner possible.

Since he’s already dead, and I fear the place he might be now, I’ll post an old southern quote...

“He needed killin’.”

[bdeaner]

I don’t have to say I’m sorry for my pro-life viewpoint. I didn’t kill anyone, nor I incite any fool to take anybody’s life.

How come when 9-11 happened we were supposed to separate the terrorists from the “peaceful” believers of Islamic faith.

How come when an illegal alien murders someone we are supposed to separate that criminal from all the “law-abiding” illegal aliens.

But how come when some criminal kills an abortionists doctor we are supposed to beat our chest and plead “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa."

[metalurgist]

Your hero R Albert Mohler is a live on your knees lick-spittle that would rather whine and pray that abortion stop because he is too cowardly to act.
This POS belittles John Brown who stood up and had the courage to act on his beliefs even though his beliefs were against the law and ended up getting him hanged. His actions and his death did start to change things by getting people to think about what he advocated and act.
One hundred thousand people praying and holding up signs did nothing to stop Tiller the baby killer. One man and one bullet did more to stop this thirty year legalized murderer than all the efforts of the high minded but ineffective protesters over the past thirty years.
If you really believe that something is wrong, sometimes your conscience demands that you act. Whining, pleading and praying just won't cut it anymore.

[csense]

If you really believe that something is wrong, sometimes your conscience demands that you act.

And if, in his heart and mind, he thought what he did was righteous, especially in the eyes of God...why did he flee after committing the act. In fact, not only did he flee, but he threatened others in the process of doing so. Those are not the actions of someone who sincerely believes they are acting in the service of God.