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Congress’s Secret Plan to Pass Obamacare
Human Events ^ | September 29, 2009 | Brian Darling

Posted on 09/29/2009 8:19:18 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

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To: MozarkDawg
Has the Hyde language been added (or will it be added) to the Senate bill ...

Okay, my top-of-the-hour news just reported that the language to prevent taxpayer funds from providing for abortions has been defeated -- if Stupak and the pro-life folks in the House stand by their principles (and I've got to believe they will on this), the bill has no chance of passage back through the House.

61 posted on 09/30/2009 10:05:28 AM PDT by MozarkDawg
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To: tsomer
A guy can labor for years and receive nothing unless society deems the result valuable. (As an artist I know about this.)

Exactly. Labor is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Debt is a claim on the borrower's future labor, or on the lenders?: I guy gets a loan to buy a house, now he has a claim on the carpenter's labor. But the bank has an IOU, a claim on the borrower's future labor. But the only thing gained is the interest paid for the temporary assignment of this claim to borrower.

The bank gave the loan borrower a certain number of "claims on future labor". In turn, the bank owns claims on future labor of the borrower.

The difference is that the bank didn't have to do any work itself in order to obtain the claims on future labor of the borrower. The borrower does have to do work to pay off its claims.

This seems too abstract to me. I think of one as the opposite of the other

We're taught to do that. We think just in terms of numbers, but we don't think in terms of "vectors" - what those numbers really mean. We just accept their "scalar" value.

It's like the difference between speed and velocity. Speed tells you how fast you're going. Velocity tells you how fast, and in what direction.

Money is never created without the same amount of debt having been created first. Never.

But wouldn't that mean there are more claims on future labor than there is labor? In other words, that now a unit of actual labor > a unit of claim on labor (money)? It now takes more of these claim tickets to purchase labor? Isn't this the very definition of inflation?

Yes! You get it! And yes, that is EXACTLY what inflation is. That's why the international bankers have to crash credit every so many decades in order to steal the underlying capital, while at the same time greatly reducing the claims on future labor. It's the only way to keep the scheme going. Otherwise, we would eventually enter hyper-inflation and the gig would be up.

This squares better with the idea that inflation redistributes money (capital, wealth) from the owner of those credits to the debtor.

It does. That is why inflation is always kept in check at a "reasonable" level. Understand, inflation is an inherent part of the cycle - and it's what our Federal government feeds on (not the Fed, the Federal government).

It is through inflation that us workerbees are encouraged to "make our money work for us" by creating new wealth. The bankers then pull the "credit rug" out from under the consumer every 80 years or so and steal a big chunk of the wealth that was created.

It sounds like you understand this pretty well. Keep pondering on it.

62 posted on 09/30/2009 10:08:37 AM PDT by politicket (1 1/2 million attended Obama's coronation - only 14 missed work!)
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To: MozarkDawg
the Senate strikes the language of a House bill and inserts its own text, it requires the bill going back to the House

Then it originated in the Senate. I see your point, but if only the number is the same, or if the same tax and spend portions were not in the house bill, this method would seem to severely violate the intent of the constitution.

63 posted on 09/30/2009 10:35:00 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: politicket

Yes...and by the time its all said and done the Federal Reserve’s policies will have tanked most of the banks holding mortgage notes. Those of us American’s left able to pay a mortgage will be writing a monthly check to the Federal Government. And THAT is what its all about!!


64 posted on 09/30/2009 10:46:39 AM PDT by mo
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To: politicket
Thanks again: As usual, answers provoke more questions:

That's why the international bankers have to crash credit every so many decades in order to steal the underlying capital, while at the same time greatly reducing the claims on future labor.

How is that done? Can you do it without crashing debt at the same time? Isn't the upshot that other debtors have much of their debt erased? A jubilee of this sort can't be exclusive, can it?

That is why inflation is always kept in check at a "reasonable" level...

I can see that, keeping the erosion of the value (of work) to a steady stream. But this is a geyser. But didn't you say the deflation, not inflation was imminent? (Or did I misread?)

workerbees are encouraged to "make our money work for us" by creating new wealth. The bankers then pull the "credit rug" out from under the consumer every 80 years or so and steal...

And they'll do this by calling in loans, devaluing stocks, and screwing bond holders? And that's why some fear the collapse of IRA's and the like?
You're saying that the banks are doing this, not the government. But I don't see banks getting into real estate or industry--too much work I would think.
I was thinking of a another scenario: Inflation and attendant devaluation of dollar is expected. Banks trade dollars for foreign currency, then hold that currency until inflation is full tilt. Then, they convert foreign currency back into more dollars and payoff a chunk of debt, default loans, bad investments, etc. An economist friend assured me that this would be nigh impossible, given Fed oversight and legal constraints. But I'm not so sure; what did they do with stim money? He also told me they were concerned about deflation, not inflation.

Still paradoxical, to my mind.

65 posted on 09/30/2009 11:02:37 AM PDT by tsomer
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To: politicket

Aw, hell.

Why did the hubster and I work are tails off, save, etc., etc? Starting to feel really foolish. Seems the Chicago way is to have someone else pay your freight, cheat on everything, then chow down on wagyo beef. Boy, have we been stupid.


66 posted on 09/30/2009 11:03:57 AM PDT by FreeStateYank (I want my country and constitution back, now!)
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To: politicket

Whoops read your response incorrectly. Glad to know you think it will strengthen.

The latter part of my previous response still applies. I am REALLY tired of crooks, cheats, and con-men/women.

What do you think are the factors which will contribute to its growing strength?


67 posted on 09/30/2009 11:06:26 AM PDT by FreeStateYank (I want my country and constitution back, now!)
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To: FreeStateYank
What do you think are the factors which will contribute to its growing strength?

The U.S. dollar is still the reserve currency of the developed world.

2/3rds of our physical dollars already reside overseas, since people in other countries trust them.

The dollar always rises in relation to other world currencies in times of economic trouble - and we will be seeing a whole lot more economic trouble coming down the pipe.

68 posted on 09/30/2009 11:57:23 AM PDT by politicket (1 1/2 million attended Obama's coronation - only 14 missed work!)
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To: D-fendr
... this method would seem to severely violate the intent of the constitution.

I would tend to agree with you, especially on the intent, but Congress has been doing this with legislation for decades, I doubt it would make it past the first gate in any kind of challenge, due to the fact that the Constitution specifically allows Senate amendment, even if that amendment strikes the initial language. The parliamentarian does not block it or object to the procedure.

69 posted on 09/30/2009 12:07:41 PM PDT by MozarkDawg
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To: tsomer
How is that done? Can you do it without crashing debt at the same time? Isn't the upshot that other debtors have much of their debt erased? A jubilee of this sort can't be exclusive, can it?

Crashing "credit", and crashing "debt" are one and the same. So is crashing "money".

Debtors have their underlying debt (claims on their future labor) erased - but at the expense of giving up their wealth (land and home) to the banker. The bank did absolutely nothing to deserve holding claims against that future labor - so they get wealth (land and home) for free - minus the costs of pushing a few papers around their desk.

I can see that, keeping the erosion of the value (of work) to a steady stream. But this is a geyser. But didn't you say the deflation, not inflation was imminent? (Or did I misread?)

There is NO inflation geyser (even though the gold company commercials would like you to believe otherwise).

Yes, the Federal government is issuing new debt like a drunken sailor - BUT the amount of credit ("money") destruction going on in our economy is far greater. This means there is LESS money, not more like you're being led to believe. Less money for approximately the same level of goods/services = deflation. Major deflation = depression.

And they'll do this by calling in loans, devaluing stocks, and screwing bond holders? And that's why some fear the collapse of IRA's and the like? You're saying that the banks are doing this, not the government. But I don't see banks getting into real estate or industry--too much work I would think.

That's my point. The banks don't want to do the physical work. They have a system set up where they can create credit out of thin air and have you pay for it, with interest. If you default, then the bank gets the wealth you've worked so hard for. The banks are using the backs of hard-working people to do their labor for them.

The Federal government is just along for the ride. They depend on inflation to obtain their power structure. That's why they're freaked out right now - their power structure is about to implode due to deflation. To compensate for this, they are shoving through the health care bill - not because they care about health, but because it creates a huge new government trust fund from 18% of our economy that they can steal money from (and replace the money with Treasury security IOU's).

I was thinking of a another scenario: Inflation and attendant devaluation of dollar is expected. Banks trade dollars for foreign currency, then hold that currency until inflation is full tilt. Then, they convert foreign currency back into more dollars and payoff a chunk of debt, default loans, bad investments, etc. An economist friend assured me that this would be nigh impossible, given Fed oversight and legal constraints. But I'm not so sure; what did they do with stim money? He also told me they were concerned about deflation, not inflation.

Banks will play whatever games make them the most money. They run our entire econony - not the Federal government.

70 posted on 09/30/2009 12:10:37 PM PDT by politicket (1 1/2 million attended Obama's coronation - only 14 missed work!)
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To: socialismisinsidious


Socialized Medicine aka Universal Health Care daily digest PING LIST

FReepmail me if you want to be added to or removed from this daily digest ping list (one ping per day of links to pertinent articles).




71 posted on 09/30/2009 12:33:40 PM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: MozarkDawg

I appreciate your knowledge and replies.


72 posted on 09/30/2009 1:13:25 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: politicket

Sorry about other countries, but sure am happy to hear your optimistic view.


73 posted on 09/30/2009 6:13:34 PM PDT by FreeStateYank (I want my country and constitution back, now!)
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To: politicket

What you say is true today. That money=debt.

But that is only because we use FRNs which are a debt based currency. It was not always so. We used to have currency that was backed (not 100% though) by gold and silver. This currency was redeemable in silver and gold

FRN = Federal Reserve Note

Beyond our paper currency our other money exists as computer blips. Does this money=debt? If you want to show me go right ahead


74 posted on 09/30/2009 6:45:34 PM PDT by dennisw (Free Republic is an island in a sea of zombies)
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To: dennisw
We used to have currency that was backed (not 100% though) by gold and silver. This currency was redeemable in silver and gold

This is true.

Beyond our paper currency our other money exists as computer blips. Does this money=debt? If you want to show me go right ahead

Yes, computer blips are debt, and computer blips are money - just electronic money.

Money is simply a representation of the way that we trade debt. More specifically, money is the way that we trade claims on future labor.

If you take out a $1,000 loan from your bank, then that is a $1,000 electronic debt to you and $1,000 of electronic money in your bank account. You can exchange your $1,000 of electronic money for $1,000 of physical money if you wish - but the principle still holds: money is debt, and debt is money.

75 posted on 09/30/2009 7:14:09 PM PDT by politicket (1 1/2 million attended Obama's coronation - only 14 missed work!)
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To: politicket
Politcket, here's an article that may catch your fancy:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/KJ06Dj04.html

And here's an excerpt:

Keynesian spending creates a deficit that sucks all the available capital out of the grassroots economy and transfers it to the Treasury market. Easy funding terms from the Federal Reserve allow financial institutions to make money in government bonds while shutting off credit to the rest of the economy. It's classic crowding out, in which the government's misguided effort to spend its way out of recession pushes the productive economy deeper into the hole.
76 posted on 10/07/2009 5:12:43 AM PDT by Right_Wing_Madman
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To: Right_Wing_Madman
Politcket, here's an article that may catch your fancy:

Thanks for the link!

The author writes a good piece - but reaches the wrong conclusion.

We are not like Japan was during 1989. The Japanese went through "stagflation" during their lost decade. Stagflation is high inflation with high unemployment.

We are in deflation mode - negative inflation with high unemployment.

77 posted on 10/07/2009 11:42:26 AM PDT by politicket (1 1/2 million attended Obama's coronation - only 14 missed work!)
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To: politicket
Politicket, you're incorrect. Japan was caught in a deflationary spiral from 1990 to 1998. See the links below.

I agree with the author's conclusion: our economy in 2009 looks much like Japan's in 1989. In 1990, The Bank of Japan and the government tried to eliminate deflation by reducing interest rates, but this was unsuccessful during the decade.

What Japan Can Teach Us About Deflation

Deflation in Japan

Japan's Deflation and Policy Response


78 posted on 10/07/2009 4:01:57 PM PDT by Right_Wing_Madman
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