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US weapons failed in 2008 Afghanistan firefight
Associated Press ^ | Oct. 11, 2009 | RICHARD LARDNER

Posted on 10/11/2009 8:18:07 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY

WASHINGTON (AP) - It was chaos during the early morning assault last year on a remote U.S. outpost in Afghanistan and Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine had quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; banglist; firefight; oef

1 posted on 10/11/2009 8:18:07 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY
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To: Free ThinkerNY
Another thread with good responses.
2 posted on 10/11/2009 8:20:11 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

My M16 failed NEW right out of the crate and never got a round thru it... got in trouble when I told Sargeant to get me a 12 gauge.


3 posted on 10/11/2009 8:21:08 PM PDT by gwilhelm56 (I will DIE with Israel BY MY SIDE, rather than LIVE with the CHAINS of ISLAM on my Back!)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

My M16 failed NEW right out of the crate and never got a round thru it... got in trouble when I told Sargeant to get me a 12 gauge.

this was during the CARTER REGIME.. I didn’t last long..


4 posted on 10/11/2009 8:22:29 PM PDT by gwilhelm56 (I will DIE with Israel BY MY SIDE, rather than LIVE with the CHAINS of ISLAM on my Back!)
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To: gwilhelm56

Sure the M16A1 I had in Basic required a lot (and I mean a lot) of babying to keep it firing, but the A2 I had at all of my permanent duty stations worked fantastic, no matter how much I abused it. The M249s that I used worked great, when belt fed, but heaven forbid you stuck a magazine in the side of it! I was lucky to get off 2 rounds before it jammed.


5 posted on 10/11/2009 8:25:15 PM PDT by rivercat
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To: gwilhelm56

Robert McNamara from hell is still killing American soldiers due to the M-16/M4 abortion.

It is a poor choice for desert or jungle warfare.


6 posted on 10/11/2009 8:25:54 PM PDT by Frantzie (Do we want ACORN running America's health care?)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

I’ve heard that in desert conditions oil lube is a dust/dirt magnet and a dry lube is the only lubricant that should be used.


7 posted on 10/11/2009 8:26:23 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Frantzie

The H & K 416 is a good solution.


8 posted on 10/11/2009 8:42:33 PM PDT by phormer phrog phlyer
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To: rivercat

I bought a Springfield M1A based it’s reputation for reliability even when thrown in mud, dirt and run over.

I have purposely not cleaned it for my own testing purposes for the last 8 months.

No problem and I have used So. African and Russian surplus, just because they are dirty and oily.

No problems and I have put National Match in. They are great but at $2.50 per round I don’t need that kind of accuracy.

I will thouroghly clean it for Christmas but, I am pretty confident in its reliability and performance.


9 posted on 10/11/2009 8:47:18 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: phormer phrog phlyer

The 1934 gun law, and every one restricting rights since, have made it so the govt designs weapons, before that private inventors did so. Figure it out, the govt screws everything up. Ban machine guns, no one will make them....at least great ones with innovation.


10 posted on 10/11/2009 8:48:06 PM PDT by runninglips (It was just time for this to come to a head.....)
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To: runninglips

“Figure it out, the govt screws everything up. “

Not everything. The M1 Garand was designed by civil servant, John C. Garand, at the Springfield Armory.


11 posted on 10/11/2009 9:24:11 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: rivercat

Interesting. Granted I was USAF and we almost never carried weapons unless you were security forces or deployed to a combat zone, but every year when I qualified, I had no issues with the m16. I am sure it was not the best gun, my sec forces friends all had their favorites.


12 posted on 10/11/2009 9:41:13 PM PDT by USAFJeeper
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To: Free ThinkerNY

To see what a .223 rifle can be, Google the Daewoo DR-200.
1. Minute of angle accuracy.
2. AK-47 gas action.
3. M-4 upper/lower design.

For a “mouse gun” caliber, it is arguably the best available. Unlike our “Matty Mattell” guns, the DR-200 works and keeps on working.


13 posted on 10/11/2009 9:42:40 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
Many times, the barrel of a malfunctioning gas-impingement AR is dying. If you take a borescope and look towards the top of the barrel near the gas block, you will find that the gas tube constricts the amount of gas that flows through for reliable timing. The pressure that backs up begins to erode a channel that forms just before the gas port. As the channel grows longer and deeper, the AR's timing changes sometimes resulting in a double feed. Excessive gas flow carries with it carbon aerosol that carries back and excessively fouls the receiver, resulting in poor ejection and jamming.

The other primary cause of jams is an over-wound magazine latch spring that prevents magazines from being fully latched in. Especially on three shot burst, the mag works slightly loose and the later rounds may misfeed.

Most armorers think that the tighter the latch, the better. That's generally true except when you are in a firefight and swapping mags in a hurry, a softer latch will more likely allow the mag to bottom out and stay tight.

Bottom line is that worn and dirty weapons may work fine on the range but not in battle.

14 posted on 10/11/2009 9:48:06 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

On a purely personal basis, I always liked the simplicity and reliability of the AK design. KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.


15 posted on 10/12/2009 1:20:10 AM PDT by Jack Hammer (w)
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To: Jack Hammer

Not only is the AK a reliable weapon, its cartridge has the same ballistics as a .30-30 Winchester round and has VERY powerful, knock-down power. I tested one recently at the rifle range and it is a reliable and accurate weapon within 300 yards. I was using just its standard iron sights with adjustable range on the rear sight and had excellent results.


16 posted on 10/12/2009 3:05:50 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: gandalftb
The other primary cause of jams is an over-wound magazine latch spring that prevents magazines from being fully latched in. Especially on three shot burst, the mag works slightly loose and the later rounds may misfeed.

Most armorers think that the tighter the latch, the better. That's generally true except when you are in a firefight and swapping mags in a hurry, a softer latch will more likely allow the mag to bottom out and stay tight.


Just curious how this causes the mag from being fully latched in? Not doubting you, just wondering?
17 posted on 10/12/2009 4:35:14 AM PDT by xmission (www.iwilldefendtheconstitution.com)
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To: runninglips
The 1934 gun law, and every one restricting rights since, have made it so the govt designs weapons, before that private inventors did so.

Huh? Tell that the Eugene Stoner... However, the government DID override a few of his specs on the original design of the M16, some good (IMHO - the forward assist), most disastrous ( different powder for the ammo, the concept of a "self cleaning" weapon, getting rid of the chrome lined chamber).

Mark

18 posted on 10/12/2009 5:45:58 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: fso301
"I’ve heard that in desert conditions oil lube is a dust/dirt magnet and a dry lube is the only lubricant that should be used."

Does anyone know what they are using over there? Is it break free CLP or a dry lube? I suspect it's still break free but I don't know for sure.
19 posted on 10/12/2009 6:26:11 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: gandalftb

Barrel overheating could be the cause of a number of the malfunctions. Talking to Korean vets who had to weather mass Chinese assaults on their positions I’ve been told that their BAR barrel was melting and rounds were firing out at the point of the bend.

Weapons malfunction is not a new problem but one that needs to be investigated for the sake of our troops. I’m not a big fan of fully auto main battle rifles. Even the M-249 should be used in bursts. Is the M-4 fully auto or is there a three round burst on it like the M-16? I think that was one of the best enhancements between the A-1 and A-2. Fully auto is inaccurate and can cause malfunctions much more rapidly.


20 posted on 10/12/2009 6:32:46 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Free ThinkerNY

I am not willing to accept AP as an authority on combat or on weapons. This was what we used to call a “target rich environment”. My first thought was they ran out of ammo.


21 posted on 10/12/2009 8:02:45 AM PDT by 19zulu
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To: xmission
If the latch is stiff but you are careful to push the mag all the way home, no problem.

The problem is when your troops are stressed and changing mags quickly. Often they can't look at the side of the mag to see if it is fully home, but it feels solid as the latch has ridden tightly up the mag catch.

As the mag feeds out, the spring pushes hard and chambers most of the rounds. However, the last few rounds have less spring pressure, if the mag loosens, rounds may not feed all the way in, jamming.

A softer latch is easier to push the mag past, all the way home. That is why I prefer worn mag cases with new springs and only five turns on the latch spring instead of the standard eight.

22 posted on 10/12/2009 9:11:29 AM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
It is the biggest problem in firefights. Too much spraying, it's hard to keep the troops calm when you're taking fire.

One of the soldiers said he fired off 500 rounds continuously until the barrel malfunctioned. That is far too much. At 90 rounds, the barrel steams off all the lube and you are dry firing after that.

Being patient, waiting for a target, pacing your weapon is damn hard to do. But the alternative is no weapon and no ammo and an enemy that knows your weapon is down....

23 posted on 10/12/2009 9:18:55 AM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: MarkL

Do you disagree that the gun laws have stifled innovation, which comes from private individuals?

Without the govts unconstitutional involvement in the RKBA, I would say that the arms that are in use right now, would be obsolete and what we would have could be so much better. There is nothing better than a free man with a better idea, if Edison were alive today, he would be toiling in a govt office.


24 posted on 10/12/2009 10:32:39 AM PDT by runninglips (It was just time for this to come to a head.....)
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To: runninglips
Do you disagree that the gun laws have stifled innovation, which comes from private individuals?

No, not at all: I agree that much government intrusion stifles individual innovation, not just in firearms design. But you stated that it was the government that designs weapons, and I disagree with that completely. The government puts forth requirements, and private companies then submit their designs. Examples include the M9 handgun competition and the example I cited, Stoner's M16.

Mark

25 posted on 10/12/2009 10:39:06 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
Does anyone know what they are using over there? Is it break free CLP or a dry lube? I suspect it's still break free but I don't know for sure.

History of the M-16/M-4 aside Because weapon jamming is something we rarely hear about from over there, multiple weapons including non-M4's jamming has me wondering if someone got a bad/unauthorized batch of lubricant?

26 posted on 10/12/2009 10:59:03 AM PDT by fso301
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To: gandalftb

One word, training. If there’s enough training and enough good platoon sergeants to smack people upside the head that are spraying and praying, you can solve this problem to a large extent. Unless you have a couple thousand Taliban badguys making a full frontal charge, there is no need to discard fire discipline.


27 posted on 10/12/2009 11:05:56 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: MarkL

If you have to work within specs given by the purchaser, who is your employer and your market, you are not free to innovate. Since there is no market other than the state collective....truly a Soviet system, there can be zero private innovation.

It is impossible to tell where a product can be improved or what new things could be invented from whole cloth, by using the greatest computers or HIRING the greatest minds. Those in control do not allow these human minds to dream freely, and computers are no more than inferior versions of the human mind with the same problems, they do only what told to do.

In conclusion I reiterate, that there are no consumers to impress and dazzle, other than the government. This distorts the market, since owning a machine gun is both expensive, open to only a few, and frightening to those that are daily told by the government media complex, that they are evil. The current crop that is considered “state of the art” is inferior to anything that can be dreamed of in the basement of a free teenager, or a skilled craftsman with a love of the “gun culture”.

The very guns that could better win us wars, protect our homes and give hours of enjoyment to law abiding citizens, are just not built.....end of rant....well thought out one, but a rant nonetheless.


28 posted on 10/12/2009 1:14:17 PM PDT by runninglips (It was just time for this to come to a head.....)
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To: runninglips
If you have to work within specs given by the purchaser, who is your employer and your market, you are not free to innovate. Since there is no market other than the state collective....truly a Soviet system, there can be zero private innovation.

You're certainly right. There can be no innovation, nor excellent design under the yoke of the government... Certainly not the M1911, M1 Garrand, M14 (T-44), M-2 machine gun, etc...

Mark

29 posted on 10/12/2009 7:01:53 PM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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