Posted on 11/03/2009 9:57:44 AM PST by AreaMan
“If your conclusion, which is so obviously wrong on its face, is so far off the mark, it leads one to question your premise. Which I do.”
That last sentence is all you really wanted to say. However your BOGUS set up is still bogus.
No one who is unaware of God’s word can have made a choice against Him.
Jews aren’t Christian but God has held them up as His own.
God Himself has said “narrow is the way and many will fall outside of it” so being part of a great multitude isn’t going to save anyone.
Can people be good without God?
Yes, because God created them! They just don’t accept
to beleive it.
The original question is the same. But the application, pointing out the fact that if moral values are based on the dictates of some entity, then they are no absolute is a different issue.
Since I believe in moral absolutes, because reality and human beings have a specific nature that determines what is and is not good for a human being, I regard basing moral values on the pronouncement of any being a very bad ethical mistake.
Very astute observation, by the way.
Hank
“Doing good” and “being good” from a Christian perspective are distinctive. Anyone can do good. However, being good is dependent on God’s declaration, not ours.
People who stay out of trouble and behave themselves when mom and dad or the babysitter weren’t around are less likely to run amok if they don’t believe in god.
>> So you are saying that being good is what? A learned behavior? Genetic?
Also why are these people less likely to run amok if the don’t believe in God? <<
Being good is a function of good parenting, doesn’t matter which god you believe in good parenting trumps it. Good parenting involves teaching a child the concept of responsibility and empathy which plays heavily into a good behavior.
Religion and a belief in God can be used to help enhance the experience of parenting a child. But it is not a absolute requisite of good/bad behavior, but it does have an influence. There are those kids who just plan don’t behave despite parenting. The issue is a lot of parents think their kids fit in this category and use it as an excuse for bad behavior.
I grew up Roman Catholic, but I am agnostic now, I do good because it makes me feel good as I am very empathic individual and treating people negatively backfires on my psyche. I know that cheating Peter to pay Paul despite best intentions is just plain wrong. Maybe I am a Ayn Rand-ian at heart....
Not in any meaningful way, no.
I disagree.
On what basis are they judged "right" or "wrong"?
For example, cowardice is universally wrong; especially when it involves failing to help another human being in danger.
That's clearly false, as liberal subculture nearly universally embraces cowardice and even condemns those who disagree as "warmongers". Hardly makes for a universal "wrong".
Where do these core values of right and wrong come from? Certainly NOT from any "natural selection", as many of them are contrary to self-preservation!
Exactly! Human nature is selfish by default. What we have come to support as "good" are frequently principles which contradict self-preservation. They lift mankind to a higher plane, above simple self-preservation, and they come from God.
I recommend CS Lewis's commentary on the matter in his book "Mere Christianity", as he discusses some universal truths that led him to reject his atheism and become a Christian.
I love C.S. Lewis and his work. My take on the reasons behind the "universal truths" is that they are implanted in us by God. The conscience of man is not a product of natural selection, as it frequently contradicts survival instincts.
God is good; No God = No Good.
You can get over that.
Give this little book a read:
“They lift mankind to a higher plane, above simple self-preservation, and they come from God.”
We agree. When I say cowardice is one of the universal wrongs, I didn’t mean some don’t embrace it; just that deep down they know they’re wrong.
A better example: a person sees another human being drowning in a river—It is a universal feeling that something should be done to save him, not doing so would cause shame (inside) for cowardice.
Why would I want to get over “it”?
There are two types of people: those who love the world and those who hate it.
I find this world to be a cess pool. There is nothing here that is worth a single minute of effort, humiliation, or pain not even the best of what the world has to offer. The only thing to look forward to is God.
The whole point of Christianity is that you are saved by what is in your heart, not outward deeds. If one claims to be a Christian and does good deeds ONLY to be spared from hell, then that person has not received the holy spirit. They are acting only on an intellectual belief in God much like the Pharisees of Jesus’s time.
From Genesis Chapter 3, we see that man disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This original sin is also attributed as being the same sin which attributed to all mankind.
Is there good without God?
The problem of sin was resolved on the Cross, but not the issue of good and evil.
There are many people who have never had faith in Christ who perform good works, but not by Divine standards,..human standards, yes, but not Divinely judged standards.
Such works are given their just rewards within those systems of order independent of God, but they do not merit Divine reward which are predestined for believers who act through faith in Christ is performing what He has planned.
A future judgment is in store for those who believe in Christ, and in their good works there will be rewards provided by Him at the bema seat. Another judgment is also in store for those who perform works to discern if they are good by His standards. Where no such Divinely judged good work remains, they shall be cast out into the Lake of Fire and they shall be burnt up.
So while we have been made to perform good works through faith in Christ, we are easily led astray by our knowledge of good and evil, mistakenly thinking any good work is synonomous with that which He provides.
Some have posited the consequence of any works or ordering which is done independent of faith in Christ is simply more evidence being presented in an appeals trial in the angelic conflict, manifesting His decision to send the fallen angels to the Lake of Fire is a sound, righteous, just judgment.
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