Posted on 06/03/2010 7:24:29 PM PDT by RobinMasters
Zionism is a thing of the past. It’s a useless term now. Israel Exists! It’s like saying you’re anti-Roman. It’s a useless old term that has no meaning anymore once the objective is over with.
“Ron Paul denounces Israel’s flotilla raid”
WOW, I am SOOOOO shocked!
You are right - Israel does exist, and it is a very good thing.
But...I’m not so sure that the Zionism debate is over or that it is unimportant because it goes to the perceived legitimacy of the existence of Israel. Consequently, I believe people need to stay engaged and counter the misinformation about Israel that the left, the MSM, and the Muslims are trying to sell the public.
I’m wondering if the Muslims - the Iranians in particular - are thinking that they need to act against Israel before our November elections because they fear that the results of the election will force Obama to be more supportive of Israel militarily.
Just remember though, when you come out anti-Israel there are only 2 reasons. To support islamics or to bash Jews. There’s nothing else. ron paul seems to be doing both, all the time. Screw him.
Prior to the creation of Israel, antizionism was legitimate. Afterward it leads to the death of Jews.
These ultra orthodox Jews do not believe that Jews are entitled to live in the land of Israel until Messiah comes and establishes them in the Land. Hence they are oppossed to Zionism. Me, on the other hand, would expel every son of Ishmael from Israel who was the product of fornication between Abraham and Hagar. No wonder the arabs are moon god worshippers.
The John Birch Society does not believe in a world Jewish conspiracy. If you think they do please present some evidence.
Please present evidence. Quote your sources.
On the contrary, Israel can handle her enemies if the U.S. would get out of the way. Look at the history of all her wars with the Arabs. Always it’s the U.S. not allowing Israel to completely defeat her enemies.
As I recall, in 1973 it was American resupply that turned the tide. On the other occasions I agree.
No surprise here. Remember when he called Operation Cast Lead, which was Israel’s response to thousands of Hamas rocket firings, a case of "preemptive war"? ...Amoral neutrality doesn't excuse his use of propaganda -- as impartial news sources have noted, Gaza isn’t "starving" -- nor does it explain his relentless attempts over the past several years to minimize the threat from Iranian nuclear weapons.
Looks like it's going to be one of those days.
The evidence I have is my own experiences in the JBS. I am willing to believe your experiences have been different than mine. But will you respect my experiences as well?
My personal theory has long been that the JBS is the "blue lodge" of the anti-Semitic movement. As such it cannot "officially" be anti-Semitic. But it sure has and has had oodles of anti-Semitic members and leaders over the years, and its conspiracy theory is merely anti-Semitism with the word "Jews" removed. Many people after spending some time in the Society draw the conclusions and move on into the anti-Semitic movement proper. The list of anti-Semitic leaders who got their start in the JBS is legion.
I notice you have said nothing (to me at least) about Ron Paul. Both Paul and Pat Buchanan are heroes to the JBS (especially Paul, who may actually be a member). While I agree that the US should let Israel take care of business, that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about that Ron Paul did not say to let Israel take care of business. He stuck his big Nazi bazoo into the situation in order to attack Israel and side with its enemies--as he and "palaeocons" always do.
You may take the JBS. I'll stick with "fat Zionists" like John Hagee (though I don't share his theology).
You cite your experiences. Please describe one.
Name some of the leaders past and or present who in your opinion are anti semitic. As far as members being thus really proves nothing as many people hate Jews and you will find them everywhere even in your local bowling leagues.
I am willing to be convinced. Nu, so be specific and convince me.
I did talk radio for ten years. I interviewed John McManus many times. He was the JBS head PR guy. I did hours of radio with him. He was then IMHO a straight shooting guy not at all bigoted against anyone. The JBS believes that the CFR and TLC have the real power in this world which transcends all gov’ts and they manipulate pols to globalize. That is their complete schtick or at least it was in the late 80s and early 90s when i was familiar with them. I think they get close to the truth and as a result get tared with the ‘anti-semitic’ smear to discredit them. The book, “Shadows of Power” was written by a Jew and presents the JBS theory. I forget the author’s name but you should be able to find it if you want.
I suspect that you like many others have believed what the MSM have said about the JBS. You think they are anti semitic but cannot cited specific examples.
As far as Ron Paul is concerned, I have lost all respect for him. Anybody who cannot see through arab terrorism against Israel in this flotilla deal is either ignorant or dislikes Jews. Dr. Paul is not ignorant so it must be the latter. It is ironic that Ludwig Von Mises was a Jew and it is the institute which bears his name that Paul and all the libertarians subscribe to. Also, a deceased gold bullion dealer, Burt Blumert, whom I knew personally was one of Paul’s best friends and a Jew. There are others as well.
Now, be a mensch, and indict the JBS with real examples of anti semitic sayings or writings if you can. I am waiting.
Hank
Nixon told the Israels that if Ariel Sharon who had crossed the Nile river and surrounded the Egyptian 3rd army had he destroyed that force then he Nixon would not rearm and resupply Israel. In every war up until recently Israel could have smashed their enemy completely but was stopped by the U.S. gov’t.
You and I have no quarrel then.
John McManus regularly gives talks on "the Jewish menace" to right wing Catholic groups. As a matter of fact, the leadership used these talks to blackmail him into falling into line at a certain point. I realize you will not take my word. I suggest you check into the blog of William Norman Grigg, a former JBS member and apologist, who knows this first hand.
I was a Society member during the Jimmy Carter years and at first I thought they were the greatest thing ever. Unfortunately, in addition to promoting anti-Semites like Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford as heroes they also carried and sold the works of Nesta Webster (an anti-Semite whose work legally belonged to an out-and-out anti-Jewish outfit called the Britons; rather than use them the JBS sold illegal pirate copies) and Prince Michel Sturdza (an abominable Romanian Iron Guard apologist). I was also told by my coordinator that some prominent Society members did indeed believe the "conspiracy" was Jewish (he cited Medford Evans in particular, but though he was a member of the Citizens' Council I have never seen evidence that Evans was anti-Jewish or even anti-Israel). However, renowned Bircher John Schmitz was a friend and supporter of Willis Carto, and Liberty Lobby's attorney was a JBS Council member (Clyde Lewis or Clyde Watts; I forget which).
The JBS-affiliated magazine American Opinion, while adopting a black and white, us vs. them attitude with regard to most world conflicts, took an uncharacteristically (or was it?) "even-handed" position on Israel and the Arabs. This is also the magazine that published the articles on Ford and Lindbergh.
Many prominent anti-Semites and "identity" people got their start in the JBS: Lt. "Jack" Mohr, Willis Carto, even Ben Klaassen (atheist founder of the "church of the creator") spent time in the Society where they imbibed just enough "conspiracy theory" to come to the conclusion implied by the Society's anti-Semitic contacts. JBS Council member Charles "Chuck" Carlson maintains a web site, "We Hold These Truths," which is vehemently anti-Israel and has a section called "Pharisee Watch." G. Edward Griffin's web site once posted a letter by someone who wanted to know why he posted so much conspiracy theory on his web site but didn't attack Israel. Griffin replied, not that doing so would be wrong, but that doing so would "turn people off" and you got more people listening by not attacking Israel.
The reason I joined the JBS was a Jewish Bircher named Alan Stang. He is now a "Baptist preacher" and a lunatic.
I have corresponded with Jewish Birchers on this subject before. I know I will not be able to sway you. But I know what I know. You do not have to agree with me. But I am not making this stuff up. These were and have been my experiences of the JBS, which I regard as the "blue lodge" of the anti-Semitic movement (and yes, they are not "officially" anti-Semitic because if they were they wouldn't be the "blue lodge," would they)?
Oh, I neglected one other little bit of information. For a while some dissident Birchers had an organization called the Robert Welch Foundation (whose web site posted headlines like "thousands of queer Jews march in Jerusalem" while promoting homosexual anti-Semite Justin Raimondo). After corresponding with the site maintainer a couple of times he responded by threatening me with physical violence, which I regarded then and regard now as one of the most childishly immature things I have ever seen.
Your mileage may vary. This is mine.
In the case I am referring to, Israel was not in a position to smash anybody until after the resupply. The Tanks were rolling off the transport plane and going straight into battle. Israel would have lost without it.
Here is one helpful link: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_ykwar_course.php
There are more detailed accounts that give additional information of the parlous situation of Israel after the suprise attack.
I appreciate it. I am familiar with many of the names you mention but did not know they were at one time or another affiliated with JBS. You got into it much more deeply than I and know more about it than I. For me, it was a souce to produce radio shows. So, they somewhat concealed their Jew hatred. Oh well, it doesn’t surprise me. I knew a long time bircher in southern Oregon when I was doing radio who utterly hated Jews but loved me cause I devoted much air time to the conspiracy they said was real. The guy is dead now. He was a professing Christian. Wonder if you can be born again truly and have vile hatred for God’s chosen people in your heart. After all, Jesus and the Prophets were all Jews. You are Jewish. Are you a believer? Have you read the Torah, The Prophets? The New Testament? I don’t dispute the truth of what you have said and yes, you have presented the evidence and I draw the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong regarding the JBS. What do you think of lewrockwell.com? Just curious? Thanks. Hank
Of course he did!!!!
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