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To: BereanBrain; Christian_Capitalist
Why do I need a system of points to codify a belief if it is evident from the bible? How does the protestant belief of “sola scriptura” that people died for, stand if I also require a system of points of belief?

"....the various creeds and confessions of the historic church have been a useful means of codifying and focusing key Biblical doctrines, and by extension are very useful in matters of church membership (covenants) or forming definitions of heresy for Protestants. An interesting problem arises, as many "Protestant" churches, especially evangelical and non-denominational ones, reject the creeds as binding on themselves re matters of discipline or doctrine. How does St Simeon the Patient Reformed Church know that First Fundamental Independent Baptist Church of Christ Unified down the street is trinitarian and orthodox, if FFIBCoCU refuses to publish (or even write down on paper) their "what we believe" document, and also refuses to deny or affirm SStPRC's own "what we believe" document?

There is no simple way of determining whether some churches are "in the fold" of authentic Christianity or are apostate/heretical. We (the pro-creedal Christians) have to "take it on faith" that they (the anti-creedal Christians) are really our brothers in Christ. Now to some extent I'm exaggerating here in order to prove a point, but I think the question is a valid one.

I would never suggest that a creed is a substitute for Scripture itself, nor would I suffer accusations that creeds are fabrications of doctrine. I would say that creeds are excellent summaries of where Scripture speaks to certain subjects, and exist as historic documents as to who took what side in ecclesiastical/doctrinal disputes. IMO creeds were wisely formed to "redeem the time" (Eph. 5:16) when testing or investigating the confessions of a professing believer, and continue to be smart tools for the churches' use today.

Only those believers that individually and institutionally submit themselves to the historic creeds of the church can be said to be "in agreement" doctrinally. By their very nature, creeds define what two or more groups' shared beliefs are, and they provide a useful way for both insiders and outsiders to test themselves on whether they really are doctrinally and congregationally unified.
-- Alex Murphy, May 2, 2009


44 posted on 07/04/2010 8:11:24 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2503089/posts?page=9#9)
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To: Alex Murphy; BereanBrain; Christian_Capitalist
By their very nature, creeds define what two or more groups' shared beliefs are, and they provide a useful way for both insiders and outsiders to test themselves on whether they really are doctrinally and congregationally unified.

I was called out and saved 15+ years ago in a church who's history can be traced back to the American Restoration. An Arminian/semi-Pelagian church with an ambiguous Statement of Faith (though generally orthodox) that flexes and changes "with the times," the church had unofficially adopted the old statement "No Creed but Christ; no confession but the Bible." Many of my old friends were shocked and taken aback when they found out that I had "converted" to a confessionally Reformed faith. Question after question came my way, the most common being: "How can you hold a man made document above Scripture?" I started a blog and eventually flipped over to maintaining a family webpage to both answer questions and maintain a record (though I am fairly undisciplined in keeping the page updated). On our "What We Believe" page I answered that question thusly:
We want to be up front and answer the question most often posed when relating that we are confessional: "How can you hold a man made document above Scripture?" The answer is simple, we don't. We believe the that Confession we confess, the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith, to have authority in the church and amongst its members ONLY in that it agrees with Scripture and is a concise statement of sound biblical doctrines. We believe the creeds we confess to have authority in the church and amongst its members ONLY in that they agree with Scripture and are concise, yet thorough, statements of the orthodox faith. The Creeds and Confession are subservient to Scripture. Would they disagree with Scripture, we would reject them. But they don't disagree, so we don't reject them. They do agree, so we accept them.

Consider that most churches have a Statement of Faith developed from that church's understanding of Scripture. These statements explain what the church teaches and what its members believe. Members of the church are expected to understand that the Statement of Faith explains, as far as the church understands, proper doctrine in the church. In America, most of these statements are fairly ambiguous (some more than most). The Creeds and Confession are similar to a Statement of Faith, though much more thorough and much, much less ambiguous.

46 posted on 07/04/2010 8:55:54 PM PDT by raynearhood ("As for you, when wide awake you are asleep, and asleep when you write"-Jerome (Against Vigilantius))
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