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To: pinochet

Wrong on most counts. Medieval Christendom was different from Islam where no worked-out distinction between spiritual and temporal rule exists. Medieval Christian political structure distinguished between spiritual and temporal rule. WHy else would there have been such conflict between kings trying to establish an Islam-type absolute temporal rule with the church subordinate to the state (Henry II and Becket)? And, in reaction, the bishops and the popes trying to rein in the kings.

An Islam-type total control by kings arose only with Protestantism—Henry VIII reduced the church to subjection to the state. The same thing happened in Germany (with Luther’s blessing—he saw the prince as the emergency bishop because he wrongly gave up hope for reform from within the Church and concluded it could only be imposed by the temporal rulers-he sanctioned state control of the Church—well-intentioned but fateful.) In Switzerland, the same thing, only it was the city council, not the king or prince.

Without the Protestant Reformation there would have been no COUNTER-Reformation, to be sure. But a reformation was underway in the 1400s. It had strong support across a wide spectrum of society. It was supported by popes until about 1465, then the popes abandoned it and frustrated reform until the 1540s. No historian can say what would have happened if the Protestant Reformation had not taken place. It did take place. But there were powerful reform movements underway. It’s plausible that they might have come to fruition even sooner, it plausible they might have been frustrated longer than they were. No one can say what “would have happened,” only what “might have happened” if you take variable X or Y (ProtRef) out of the equation.

The shift toward lending at interest with church approval was already under way long before the Protestant Reformation. As a more sophisticated credit system emerged in the 13th and 14th centuries, Catholic thinkers were reevaluating how one defines “usury.” Again, it’s perfectly plausible that the capitalist system as we know it could have emerged without the Protestant Reformation. Then again, it might not have.


9 posted on 09/21/2010 8:53:55 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Houghton M.

“Henry VIII reduced the church to subjection to the state”

Like the French kings didn’t do that to the Popes in their time.


13 posted on 09/21/2010 8:59:05 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (Nothing to see here. Move along.)
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To: Houghton M.
The authority of the nationstate over the church didn't arise with Protestantism ~ in fact, it wasn't codified until the mid 1600s with the Peace of Westphalia (a series of treaties ending the 30 Years war).

To a degree some earlier Catholic states actually exercised more authority over the church than did any states, Catholic or Protestant, after Westphalia.

15 posted on 09/21/2010 9:04:59 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Houghton M.

I am well aware of short-comings in Protestant history. But it is time that Catholics and Protestants formed a united theological front, to fight the threat that radical Islam poses to the Christian civilizations of America and Europe.

Certainly, the best thing about Medieval Catholicism, is that it stopped Muslims from taking over Europe. We need to bring back the fighting spirit of King Richard the Lionheart, and other great warriors who defended the Christian civilizations of the West, if Christianity is to survive in the long-term.

The only true warrior against radical Islam in Europe happens to be an ex-Catholic, Geert Wilders, who is now an atheist. He is fighting a lonely battle, and Christians are not doing enough to help him. It is time that Christians fought back, in defense of their civilization.


23 posted on 09/21/2010 9:27:33 AM PDT by pinochet
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To: Houghton M.

“Medieval Christendom was different from Islam where no worked-out distinction between spiritual and temporal rule exists. Medieval Christian political structure distinguished between spiritual and temporal rule.”

I read his comparison with Islamic governments a little differently. I think his emphasis was on the fact that both Islamic states (even many today) and Medieval Christendom were imposing temporal punishments on their people for violations of spiritual statutes. Just as a heretic can be beheaded under Shariah, a heretic could have been killed by the Inquisition. The enforcement may have been less universal, but there is a legitimate comparison to be made.

More disturbing to me, is that Christ didn’t command us to kill anyone for our beliefs, while Mohammed did command his followers to do so. We took it upon ourselves, whether out of zeal or other motives.


33 posted on 09/21/2010 10:33:49 AM PDT by Boogieman
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