Posted on 09/23/2010 5:24:36 AM PDT by marktwain
A 62-year-old woman visiting a local Culver's sees several restaurant patrons with guns on holsters in plain view.
She doesn't know that Wisconsin law allows people to openly carry a firearm, so she notifies authorities, later telling them, "I didn't want to be that one person that saw guns and didn't call and something horrible happens."
Officers arrive to find five armed men at the restaurant near East Towne Mall. In an effort to determine whether there is any threat to public safety, they ask to see the men's identification to make sure they're not felons, who are prohibited from possessing firearms.
To some, the actions by Madison police Saturday evening are reasonable. But members of gun rights organizations say police had no reason to suspect the men were felons. And what happened next, they say, amounted to the illegal search and detention of two of the men when they refused to provide their IDs.
Shawn M. Winrich, 33, of Madison, said he remained silent when police asked if he would provide his ID. Police then told him he was being placed under arrest, and he was handcuffed, disarmed, searched and held until police determined he was not a felon, Winrich said.
Winrich and Frank R. Hannan-Rock, 53, of Racine, were then given municipal citations for obstructing an officer, Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain said.
But Auric Gold, secretary of Wisconsin Carry, and Mike Stollenwerk, cofounder of OpenCarry.org, said police do not have the right to demand that people identify themselves without probable cause to believe they've committed or are about to commit a crime.
That was not the case with the five Wisconsin Carry members who had simply gotten together to meet and have a meal, Winrich said.
Winrich said he began carrying a gun about four months ago for personal safety and routinely takes it anywhere it is lawfully permitted without incident.
"People know it is legal and it's not something to be concerned about," he said. "Most people really don't have much of a problem with it. They're just kind of curious."
But Winrich, who made an audio recording of the encounter with Madison police, said he carries a recorder in case a problem arises. He said he chose not to give his ID to Madison police because of "the attitude and the overstepping of authority that they had."
Wisconsin Carry won a $10,000 judgement against the city of Racine and its police department after Hannan-Rock was involved in a similar incident there, Gold said.
Openly carrying a firearm is "just like anybody else carrying a carrot down the street, or a cell phone," Stollenwerk said, adding that police in the 43 states that allow some form of open carry have become accustomed to people's right to have a firearm. "This stuff doesn't happen in the rest of the country anymore."
Madison Police North District Capt. Cameron McLay said he believes officers acted appropriately in responding to a report of armed men in a public place in an urban setting, and the caller's concern that something might happen.
McLay said police were going into "a highly ambiguous situation" and had to determine if a crime had been or was about to be committed and preserve public safety, while assuring the rights of all involved. "This is what the officers did in this case to the best of their ability."
But McLay questioned whether obstruction was the correct citation given the circumstances. On Monday, detectives were sent to Culver's for further investigation to determine if another criminal charge, such as disorderly conduct, is warranted, McLay said.
Based on initial police reports, he acknowledged, "There is no indication that a disturbance had taken place."
McLay declined to comment on the legality of searching and detaining Winrich and Hannan-Rock until the police investigation is completed.
what’s the big deal about handing a police officer your driver’s license?
On WHAT basis? (disturbing the peace) No peace was disturbed until the officers intervened in a previously peaceful setting.
The article states these gentlemen offered no physical resistance or back talk, just not the forthcoming cooperation the officers sought.
This’ll be interesting to follow.
If you are close to this, please keep us FReepers informed.
Thanks for posting this update.
It’s perfectly legal for the officer to ask you for ID in the situation though, and you have to comply. You cannot refuse to ID yourself to a uniformed LEO as far as I know.
Why didn’t the 911 operator simply inform the caller that open carry is legal?
No different than folks making sure the Press were around for their ‘civil disobedience’ protests — protests that were justified in an era of (racially based) trampled civil rights.
It’s also no different than keeping a paper trail when dealing with a shady car repair shop. It’s prudence, which enables jurisprudence.
The 2nd amendment and its protection is no less an issue than protection and guarantees of other personal rights.
Protecting yourself from a he said/they said situation if it gets ugly that’s all.
It’s called having a chip on your shoulder and asking for a fight.
So, it’s OK for us to live in a “Papers please” nation? I don’t think so. The Press are covered up in sympathy for illegals who CANNOT be asked to ID themselves just for being openly Hispanic. Same issue holds here; just different specifics.
State law applies here, and I don’t know Wisconsin law.
This’ll be interesting to follow.
Police check people to see if they can legally drive or are impaired, regularly. Open carry really isn’t anything like carrying a carrot or a cell phone.
You are only required to have your ID if you are doing an activity that requires it, such as operating a motor vehicle. Police aren't authorized to just ask anyone for their ID nor do people have to carry it if they aren't driving a car or other activity like that.
The question is, does Wisconsin's open carry law require you carry and produce an ID? If no, then they wouldn't have to provide it. If yes, then they would, just like a traffic stop.
The real BS charge is the 'disturbing the peace' charge for all of them, even those who complied. They are being penalized for obeying the law. That is just police looking for revenge from an embarrassing situation that made the news.
How could the operator know if they were carrying legally? They could have been felons, that’s why the ID check.
911 should have asked “what are they doing?” A: Nothing but eatin’ and talkin’ OK ma’am they can have guns.
No.
But the police were called to investigate. They can legitimately ask for ID in the situation.
It’s not like they just walked in and asked for ID’s.
However, see the new posting on why this may have been a retaliation / setup ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2594740/posts
We’re now forcing our LEOs to be crime “predictors?!” They have to roll up on a peaceful situation and assess the possibility that the perps might commit a crime? This is ridiculous!
They were called to investigate, so they can ask for ID’s of everyone involved. That is legit.
They did not just request identification out of the blue.
However, see:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2594740/posts
I hope you’re right...
Bingo!
Same as asking someone for ID if you THINK they are Hispanic.
No can do...profiling.
No it’s not.
This is not even civil *DIS*obedience performed to make a point. These folks were completely within their rights.
What if the offense were nothing more than wearing a:
(1) ZERObama T-shirt, or
(2) Gadsden flag ball cap, or
(3) a less polite FUBO polo shirt, or
(4) anything the ‘other side’ disagrees with?
Where the State gets to draw the line is an important issue.
YOU seem to draw a line that says open carry is across a legal and or civil line. That is your opinion, but it is not based in law or ‘in fact.’
Seriously, in your opinion WHY is it wrong to openly carry? Our police officers do it. These guys weren’t walking around with weps stuck in their waistbands — they were not presenting the appearance of a threat. WHY was it wrong?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.