Posted on 07/23/2011 9:40:14 PM PDT by quantim
OSLO, Norway (AP) -- Police arrived at an island massacre about an hour and a half after a gunman first opened fire, slowed because they didn't have quick access to a helicopter and then couldn't find a boat to make their way to the scene just several hundred yards (meters) offshore. The assailant surrendered when police finally reached him, but 82 people died before that.
Survivors of the shooting spree have described hiding and fleeing into the water to escape the gunman, but a police briefing Saturday detailed for the first time how long the terror lasted - and how long victims waited for help.
The shooting came on the heels of what police told The Associated Press was an "Oklahoma city-type" bombing in Oslo's downtown: It targeted a government building, was allegedly perpetrated by a homegrown assailant and used the same mix of fertilizer and fuel that blew up a federal building in the U.S. in 1995.
In all, at least 89 people were killed in the twin attacks that police are blaming on the same suspect, 32-year-old Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik.
(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...
Thanks for the correction. Now that you mention the arrival time and getting to the library, I think what I was remembering was the time between when the SWAT team members were all there, until they first went in the school. That was about 45 minutes.
Yes, very little gun ownership in Norway. I’m here now, and just toured downtown Oslo. The locals are in shock. This was totally unexpected, and they were totally unprepared. Most are opposed to any sort of gun ownership...
The more militarized the police get the more concerned it seems they get about taking less risk.
Which sorta defeats the purpose.
When I was a boy..even beat cops with SW .38s would not have sat on their black ops clad asses while kids were being shot inside
some would have taken an initiative and tried
juxtapose Columbine with the University of Texas shooting in the mid 60s and you’ll see what I mean
you can count on cops less today then in the old days...but they sure look meaner
the video game generation
Not overly defending the Norway SWAT team...but they had multiple things going against them. The emergency lines were clogged with calls due to the explosion in Oslo, they had to drive to the wharf due to the lack of an a avilable Helo, and once they got to their all the boats were out trying to rescue the youngsters who were trying to swim to safety.
The real shame is that there apparently wasn’t a security detail on the island. Even if it was just a couple renta cops with service revolvers and radios they probably could have helped and greatly reduced the casualties.
If it's fake, somebody did a lot of work in a short time.
Prior to Columbine training said you set up a perimeter and let SWAT deal with the entry or hostage negotiation.
Prior to 9/11 people were conditioned to sit in their seat on a plane assuming it was a hijacking and let the authorities negotiate a resolution.
Tactics change from experiences both good and bad. Today, the police train for “active shooters” and engagement is the first priority.
People will no longer sit still in a plane when someone attempts to take it over with box-cutters.
Thankfully, events like Columbine and 9/11 are very rare and often beyond imagination. Having scorn for the first officers on the scene in the middle of the chaos at Columbine is like being angry with the passengers on the hijacked planes that hit buildings on 9/11. They did what they were conditioned to do based on prior actions with the mindset that their actions were statistically the right choice. “Active Shooter” was not a police term prior to Columbine. The only one that I can remember right off was the gunman in the clock tower at the University of Texas in the 60’s.
That said, the diary portion at the end is weird and chilling to read.
“The shooting came on the heels of what police told The Associated Press was an “Oklahoma city-type” bombing in Oslo’s downtown: It targeted a government building, was allegedly perpetrated by a homegrown assailant and used the same mix of fertilizer and fuel that blew up a federal building in the U.S. in 1995.”
The cops over there remembered the OK bombing and relayed it to the AP??? This is a set-up by the AP. We’re all being set-up.
Prior to 9-11 the point was to HOLD hostages as a rule...there were no hostages on 9-11
I grew up in a time when no cop woulda sat around outside a kill zone..especially with kids being slaughtered waiting for armor..no way.
Training does not excuse that.
Cops..God love them..have gotten more militarized, more “separate”, bigger an better and more sophisticated weapons
and less balls or heart...(with exceptions)...training or not
look at Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde and so forth..oddly enough I had this discussion with my older two lads today...those cops...locals...and highway patrol and deputies actually engaged fire at great risk with desperate men much better armed with BARS and Thompsons and semi auto pistols while they mostly had revolvers, lever action centerfire rifles and shotguns
look back even much closer...West Hollywood bank robbers...talk about brazen...but the cops fought back..engaged...took huge risks to save fellow officers and civilians caught in a serious urban gun battle to rival Chechnya or Bosnia
the Columbine guys...even after the battle wagons arrived sat on their hands...a bit afraid to enter a building where kids were known to be killing kids fearing explosives and armed nutbags...well hell...if you can't handle that then be a librarian
training...whatever...no excuse..it's the culture
never when I grew up would cops do that...they would hang their head in shame for that crap...not ask for bigger budgets or in this case likely PSTD time off ...
I'd rather have 20 good old fashioned Mississippi Highway Patrol or Texas Rangers circa 1955 with sidearms than a panel truck full of steroid addled guys in black gear all strapped down with crap I can't get without a transfer stamp plotting strategy like they think they are SEAL TEAM SIX
speaking of which ...does anyone think serious engagement forces like SEALs or any other unit likely to see action would just stand around waiting for more bigger better while the Taliban was across the wire cutting their buddies balls off and they could hear his screams?
I doubt it...even if they knew they would take casualties
We got too much damn SWAT or SWAT wannbes...and they ain't SEALs or Green Beanies or Force Recon whatever...no matter how much they suit up
On the map, it looks like about 25 miles from downtown Oslo to Utoya, with a good highway that goes right by the edge of the lake. It should have taken no more than 25 minutes to drive. Getting across to the island was another problem, of course.
"When they came for the children
where were the Norwegiann police?"
This seems crazy. An island with a fairly large youth summer camp going on — and no one on the mainland has quick access to transportation to take police or any kind of emergency transportation there?
If not police helicopters, what about Oslo hospitals? Do they have helicopters?
What was the camp’s plan for emergencies?
Nothing takes away from the demonic actions of this shooter. But you do kind of expect that the police and EMS can get to a summer camp fairly quickly if needed to for ANY reason.
I pray for the people of Norway and am very sorry for their tragic loss.
But IIRC, the SWAT team got to the school quickly and set up operations. Entering the school was another matter.
Yes. What is a worry about this story is the idea that the police did not have ready access to appropriate transportation to get to the island at all.
You’d think they would have transportation assets at their disposal and several back-up plans for quickly getting around the city and its environs.
This would be as though SWAT couldn’t get to Columbine simply because it couldn’t find a van to load up in.
Adding those facts into the scenario make it more understandable. Thanks.
I was so focused on the island massacre when reading this, I wasn’t thinking about the real-world impact of the bombing downtown, too. And I imagine that in the first hours, as on 9/11, there’s an incredible pressure from wondering how many attacks are going to follow-on and how to have first responders positioned just in case.
OTOH, the bombing would have raised the stakes when reports started coming in that something was also occurring at the summer camp.
I have lived in coastal areas and the police had many marine assets, including dedicated marine patrols, as well as access to Navy and Coast Guard assets. I can’t imagine the police not having ready boats to get out to the island. But, as you point out, these stories are always more complicated than it may appear at first blush.
The Norwegian police are political correctness gone amok. And now these Keystone Cops are going to investigate what went wrong?
Not knowing the language I’m probably mistaken, but there are enough similarities in many words to suspect that Utoya might mean Utopia, given the political orientation of the group that owns it.
I wonder how they feel about gun ownership today?
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