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Why Taxing the Rich Does Not Work
Real Clear Markets ^ | 08/09/2011 | Louis Woodhill

Posted on 08/09/2011 8:12:31 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: SeekAndFind

Federal revenue is always - ALWAYS - between 15-20% of GDP. We’re about 18% right now. At best we could, with extreme optimism, squeeze another 2 points out - which would net at most $0.3T additional revenue. Doesn’t matter how you squeeze who, that’s the practical maximum - beyond that, the economy will slow to match as people realize working much more doesn’t return much more.

GDP, other than under the Obama, has been increasing about $1T/yr for 15 years. Jump-starting the economy to double that growth (again, extreme optimism) would net an annual revenue increase of $0.4T - beyond that, may as well wish for rainbows and unicorns as well.

So between tight squeezing and profound growth, and shots of happy juice, we could conceive of an outer-limits maximum growth of $0.7T in revenue per year. More than that just ain’t happening.


51 posted on 08/09/2011 2:30:41 PM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com/)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
That is exactly what you did.

Nope. I used an analogy to demonstrate how silly your "middle ground" rant was.

52 posted on 08/09/2011 2:35:12 PM PDT by Mr.Unique (Very generic, non-offensive, tagline.)
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To: Mr.Unique

Maybe you should look up the words “middle ground” and get back to me Mr. Extreme Example.


53 posted on 08/09/2011 2:44:08 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: SeekAndFind

ping for later....


54 posted on 08/09/2011 2:47:09 PM PDT by Logic n' Reason (The stain must be REMOVED (ERADICATED)....NOW!!)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

Please use the term “supply-side economics” instead of “trickle-down”.

“trickle-down” is semantic infiltration from the left.


55 posted on 08/09/2011 3:07:04 PM PDT by Zman516
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To: GreenvillePatriot
trickle down economics doesn’t completely work either.

(sigh)

There's no such thing as "Trickle Down Economics." The term is a leftist construct designed to ridicule Supply Side Economics, which worked every time it's been tried. You make yourself sound economically illiterate when you use the leftist phraseology.

56 posted on 08/09/2011 3:18:39 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
Maybe you should look up the words “middle ground” and get back to me Mr. Extreme Example.

I'll find it between "compromise" and "RINO".

57 posted on 08/09/2011 3:19:50 PM PDT by Mr.Unique (Very generic, non-offensive, tagline.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
Our country is in a pickle and that needs to change. If we can’t be rational thinkers and try to come up with a plan we are destined for failure.

I have a dollar here that says there's a tax increase somewhere in that package of rational thinking you have.

58 posted on 08/09/2011 3:21:41 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: Mr.Unique

I think the leftist wants to trickle your $500K out of the hide of some corporate jet owner.


59 posted on 08/09/2011 3:25:10 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: Cyber Liberty

If need be. I guess I come from the old school Republican thinking like Reagan who knew that raising taxes sometimes need to happen to improve the fiscal conditon of the Government.


60 posted on 08/09/2011 3:31:53 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: GreenvillePatriot

If you are referring to TEFRA, Reagan swore he regretted that to his dying day, because the Dems bargained in bad faith with no intention of ever cutting spending to match the new taxes.

So you would agree to being cheated, if need be? You must work on Boehner’s negotiating team. When are you going to mail that $1,000,000 you owe that guy?


61 posted on 08/09/2011 3:38:06 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
I guess I come from the old school Republican thinking like Reagan who knew that raising taxes sometimes need to happen to improve the fiscal condition of the Government.

You have beautifully encapsulated Reagan's legacy. </sarcasm>

62 posted on 08/09/2011 3:41:59 PM PDT by Mr.Unique (Very generic, non-offensive, tagline.)
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To: Cyber Liberty
When are you going to mail that $1,000,000 you owe that guy?

She totally missed the point of that little exercise. *snicker*

63 posted on 08/09/2011 3:45:01 PM PDT by Mr.Unique (Very generic, non-offensive, tagline.)
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To: Mr.Unique

My Magic Eight Ball predicts a money order for $2,000,000 in your mailbox soon..He drives a hard bargain, that negotiator who works for Boehner!


64 posted on 08/09/2011 3:45:01 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: Mr.Unique

(the amount went up to $4,000,000 because someone kept moving the goal posts)


65 posted on 08/09/2011 3:46:09 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: Cyber Liberty

Reagan raised taxes in 1982, 1983, and 1986. Tefra was 1982.


66 posted on 08/09/2011 3:46:18 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: GreenvillePatriot

High income earners pay most of the taxes collected by our government right now. A very large segment of the population pays no federal income taxes at all, and in fact consume large amounts of tax money. In return for this, they vote for the “right party.”

By using the phrase “trickle-down economics” you identify yourself as an economic illiterate. I hope that doesn’t offend you, and perhaps you are very young and so can use that for an excuse.

We have an economy that generates vast wealth, so much wealth that it’s possible to arrange things so that tens of millions of people don’t have to do any useful work at all to live a very comfortable lifestyle, at least by the standards of the rest of the world. People who do no work (other than filling out government forms or sitting still for a few hours while a government worker fills out their forms for them) are able to afford food, housing, cars (quite nice cars in some cases), cable television, cell phones, internet, large-screen televisions, computers, and air conditioning. In many cases, they’re able to live in suburban neighborhoods in which they don’t fit, and often that results in the value of the whole neighborhood being dragged down as they act out in ways that small-town police forces aren’t equipped to handle.

Our economy generates such a vast stream of wealth that politicans are able to buy the votes of tens of millions of people through this type of deal. These people become, essentially, “vote cows.” They do nothing other than vote, consume, and have children who perpetuate the cycle. They demand ever more, and when they don’t get what they want they create mayhem.

This is the dynamic that “doesn’t work.” It has nothing to do with how much this demographic group is taxed, or not taxed. It has everything to do with political forces taking advantage of the incredible wealth-producing power of our free society to enrich the groups they favor on the backs of the groups that don’t want to go along with the game.


67 posted on 08/09/2011 3:47:31 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: Mr.Unique

Wasn’t trying to encapsulate anything. Just stating a fact that even Reagan knew that raising taxes sometimes need to happen.


68 posted on 08/09/2011 3:48:46 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: GreenvillePatriot

Let me get a quick question in here, so I can see where you’re coming from: What is the purpose of taxes? Are taxes to raise money or to level the playing field?


69 posted on 08/09/2011 3:52:28 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: Steely Tom

Sheesh, I used the term “trickle down” instead of supply side and because of that I don’t know anything? Check. What an easy way to disregard everything I said.

One of the main reasons a lot of people do not pay federal income tax is because of the earned income credit tax credit. Are you willing to do away with that so they pay more Federal income tax? They do still however still pay sales tax.

Most people own all of the things you mentioned because of they buy these things on credit that like this country do not pay back.

If we are talking people just on welfare we are talking like $600 a month max and I think that is in California. I don’t know what Suburban areas you can pay rent much less a mortage for whatever is left over from $600 a month.

I do think welfare is a huge problem in this country. I think there are people that leech off of welfare all of their lives and they are the lowest form of human being. That being said, they are far from comfortable.


70 posted on 08/09/2011 4:04:01 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: Cyber Liberty

Raise money.


71 posted on 08/09/2011 4:05:57 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: SeekAndFind

I actually meant Mr. Bigbucks would just take his money and move to another country to live...I know he would have to declare and likely pay something- but then he is out of our system, forever. I forget when it was but at one time this country was taxing the rich a lot and I read a biography of a movie star that said the biggest stars just up and moved to Europe and hung out, might have been in the 20s not sure of the time frame.


72 posted on 08/09/2011 4:11:07 PM PDT by Tammy8 (~Secure the border and deport all illegals- do it now! ~ Support our Troops!~)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

Good.

I redirect your attention to the article at the top of this thread. The premise is “Raising tax rates will not raise more money, but will instead reduce the revenues collected.”

Notice that at no time (that I have seen) does it suggest that raising tax rates was a good idea because Regan did it.

If you want to stay credible in this discussion, I encourage you to address the issues raised in the original article, instead of arguing Reagan raised taxes too. As an additional bit of advice, I recommend you refrain from using disproved leftist phraseology such as “trickle-down economics” when making your arguments, because it disqualifies you as a leftist tool, even if that characterization of you is inaccurate.

You may not agree, but I thought the guy dunning you for a million bucks was a funny argument, and you missed his point entirely when you referred to it as a “straw man.” It was not, but it was a good example of using an extreme to point out the foolishness of a less-extreme position.


73 posted on 08/09/2011 4:15:54 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: Tammy8

What first world country would you suggest he move to?


74 posted on 08/09/2011 4:17:17 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: GreenvillePatriot

Long story made shorter: If you want to maximize revenue, any kind of hike on high-earners will have the opposite effect. I got carried away with being a meanie.

:^P


75 posted on 08/09/2011 4:19:19 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

I’d rather see Mr. Bigbucks stay here and help make this a first-world country....He didn’t get the big bucks by fleeing at every opportunity.


76 posted on 08/09/2011 4:21:29 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
Sheesh, I used the term “trickle down” instead of supply side and because of that I don’t know anything? Check. What an easy way to disregard everything I said.

I didn't disregard everything you said. I disagreed with most of what you said, but I didn't disregard it. If you come on FR and spout a lot of nonsense, you have to be ready for people to disagree with you, and to post their disagreements. If that bothers you, don't post such blatant stupidity.

One of the main reasons a lot of people do not pay federal income tax is because of the earned income credit tax credit. Are you willing to do away with that so they pay more Federal income tax? They do still however still pay sales tax.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Whatever the reason "a lot of people do not pay federal income tax," the result is the same: people who do not pay federal income tax have a vested interest in keeping the tax rates high for those who do pay federal income tax. They constitute a built in perpetual constituency for high taxes, which is what politicians want.

Most people own all of the things you mentioned because of they buy these things on credit that like this country do not pay back.

What is your point here? You're just jabbering.

If we are talking people just on welfare we are talking like $600 a month max and I think that is in California. I don’t know what Suburban areas you can pay rent much less a mortage for whatever is left over from $600 a month.

What is "$600 a month max"? Public assistance in California? Yeah, right.

I do think welfare is a huge problem in this country. I think there are people that leech off of welfare all of their lives and they are the lowest form of human being. That being said, they are far from comfortable.

How "comfortable" is the right degree of "comfort" for people who don't work, can't work, have children, don't educate them, can't educate them, won't keep track of them, won't make them do homework, won't stop them from trashing their neighborhoods, won't stop them from engaging in criminal behavior... How much "comfort" do these people need? What's the "right" amount of comfort? Are they owed a certain degree of comfort by the people who do live responsibly? If so, why?

77 posted on 08/09/2011 4:21:57 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: Cyber Liberty

I wasn’t addressing the article in general. I was addressing you saying, “I have a dollar here that says there’s a tax increase somewhere in that package of rational thinking you have”. Now that I answered your question and provided you with the fact Reagan, my favorite President ever by the way, raised taxes you came back with how half of the country doesn’t pay taxes. Which I also refuted. Now you are telling me to stick to the article in question instaed of refuting what I said is an easy way to not address anything I said.

Another easy way to not address anything I said is to attack me for using a term. Trickle down Trickle Down Booga OOga! It’s in the American lexicon. I have heard many a right wing pundit use it. I guess they are leftists tools too!


78 posted on 08/09/2011 4:30:15 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: Steely Tom

I was addressing your statement about concerning a large percentage not paying Fed Income Tax. EIC is the reason they do not pay that tax. Are you willing to do away with EIC?

You said that those that don’t pay the federal income tax could afford a plethora of things. I stated that they pay for that on credit and do not pay that back. Has nothing to do with the fact they pay no Fed Tax.

I am actually not going to justify welfare recipients with you. That even I can’t do. They are a scurge but they aren’t the only economical problem this country has.


79 posted on 08/09/2011 4:42:01 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: GreenvillePatriot
Another easy way to not address anything I said is to attack me for using a term. Trickle down Trickle Down Booga OOga! It’s in the American lexicon. I have heard many a right wing pundit use it. I guess they are leftists tools too!

If you wish to cede the language to the leftists, you go on ahead. Lose the argument to them while you are at it. I choose not to. As do many others, as you have learned.

80 posted on 08/09/2011 4:50:13 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

You are actually funny, you know that?

By the way, it’s spelled “scourge.”

And none of our problems are “economical.” We have a lot of “economic” problems — that is, problems with our economy — but they’re all very, very expensive, as far as I can tell.


81 posted on 08/09/2011 4:52:00 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: Cyber Liberty

Christ on a cracker. I said trickle down instead of supply side!! Keep attacking terms and not addressing what I have said specifically. You have tap danced around everything I have stated. I am sure you gave yourself a high five.


82 posted on 08/09/2011 4:54:21 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: Steely Tom

Now attack my spelling and grammar. When you have no retort go to grammar. Are you going to call me a nazi now. Let’s Godwin this MFer.


83 posted on 08/09/2011 4:55:48 PM PDT by GreenvillePatriot
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To: GreenvillePatriot
Now attack my spelling and grammar. When you have no retort go to grammar. Are you going to call me a nazi now. Let’s Godwin this MFer.

Why not learn to use the spell checker and how to write coherently?

Then, after you've done that, you can move on to bigger things, like how to have a coherent thought.

84 posted on 08/09/2011 4:58:12 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
I am sure you gave yourself a high five.

Uh, no. That would be rude. Now run along.

85 posted on 08/09/2011 5:05:37 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Even Herbert Hoover kept a AAA bond rating.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot; null and void; holdonnow; Jim Robinson; Diana in Wisconsin; stephenjohnbanker; ..
I think “the rich should have a minimal tax increase. ~snip~ I know this is controversal for some but....

"but" is the short form for "Behold the Ultimate Truth".

You do know that the government raises more money when taxes are lower, don't you?

And why would the rich give an even higher percentage of their earnings so the government can give it away to the 'less productive' members of our society?

Why would any free person do that? How many hours each week should the average business owner work for free simply because he/she took the risk of opening a business? 5? 10? 40?

86 posted on 08/09/2011 5:07:40 PM PDT by fanfan (Why did they bury Barry's past?)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

The ‘rich’ as you put it already pay more than their ‘fair’ share.
You know who else wants to tax the ‘rich’, or at leats those with more money than he has?
Moronic Matt Damon.

“If trickle down worked we would have seen close to zero unemployment under Bush. “

If spending were actually cut and regulations were not as anti-business and anti-growth, you ‘might’ have a point.
But you don’t.
Because regulations are put into place by government to stifle business because.. they are there to gouge more money from businesses as a stealth tax on actual work done.
Yes, onerous regulations are part of the problem with unemployment.

But, reading your ‘soak the rich’ post, I doubt you’d understand any of the above.


87 posted on 08/09/2011 5:55:38 PM PDT by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
If trickle down worked we would have seen close to zero unemployment under Bush.

You never studied economics have you? There is a natural unemployment rate that will always happen around 4%-5% because free economies by definition are dynamic. That said, guess what the average unemployment rate was under President Bush- around 5%-6%. With all the problems, employment was very vibrant (as long as you didn't listen to the Dem's propaganda). Anything lower and frankly, it is either an unusual boom or it is artificially controlled. After all, the Soviet Union claimed to have 0 unemployment.

88 posted on 08/09/2011 6:05:37 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: GreenvillePatriot
. I am sure you gave yourself a high five.

No, moron, I gave YOU a zot.

89 posted on 08/09/2011 6:06:18 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: fanfan; GreenvillePatriot; null and void; holdonnow; Jim Robinson; Diana in Wisconsin

” Why would any free person do that? How many hours each week should the average business owner work for free simply because he/she took the risk of opening a business? 5? 10? 40? “

I know one thing....as an international banker, I can tell you the “rich” are leaving here in DROVES! For instance, the top tax rate in Malaysia is 28%


90 posted on 08/09/2011 6:12:35 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: Admin Moderator

Thank you for that wise ZOT : )


91 posted on 08/09/2011 6:13:33 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
Matt Damon!
92 posted on 08/09/2011 6:24:49 PM PDT by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: Darksheare; stephenjohnbanker; Tax-chick; Monkey Face; NicknamedBob

You guys know this would make a wonderful undead thread for Sept., eh?


93 posted on 08/09/2011 6:34:47 PM PDT by fanfan (Why did they bury Barry's past?)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

I have no idea but am sure there are places where they welcome people that have lots of bucks and want to retire. It doesn’t even have to be a first world country, many third world countries have places for rich folks to live posh lifestyles and are more likely to welcome someone with money. Some Vietnam Veterans live in Thailand and seem quite happy there, not sure what the laws are about moving there but many have businesses and some are just retired there. I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of people with money just moving elsewhere but I would imagine if you had the money you could find a new place to live.


94 posted on 08/09/2011 6:35:14 PM PDT by Tammy8 (~Secure the border and deport all illegals- do it now! ~ Support our Troops!~)
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To: GreenvillePatriot
I also think the Government should cut spending in all of the pet projects on both sides.

Serious question: What are conservatives' "pet projects?" Maybe the military and border defense. Not so much charity and safety nets, both of which are abused and can be handled by faith-based organizations and families without government funds. But by and large, what do you think conservatives want to spend government money on that isn't a Constitutional function?

95 posted on 08/09/2011 6:55:01 PM PDT by TN4Liberty (My tagline disappeared so this is my new one.)
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To: fanfan
"You guys know this would make a wonderful undead thread for Sept., eh?"

Well, it is by now technically a ZOT thread.

96 posted on 08/09/2011 8:47:41 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (As soon as the rush is over, I'm going to buy some stocks. Next question is, who goes in 'em first?)
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To: fanfan

BIG BUMP to your post no. 86, fanfan.


97 posted on 08/09/2011 11:57:48 PM PDT by Cindy
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To: fanfan; stephenjohnbanker; Tax-chick; Monkey Face; NicknamedBob; Anoreth

Hmmm... throw it into the grab bag.

Looks like I’ll be heading off to AIT in October.
I’ll be heading to drill in Sept, but I’ll be here for thread change.
[My head spins]


98 posted on 08/10/2011 9:51:40 AM PDT by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: GreenvillePatriot

Awwwww....bye bye.


99 posted on 08/10/2011 10:07:16 AM PDT by Mr.Unique (Very generic, non-offensive, tagline.)
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To: Darksheare

The military is good at changing your schedule.


100 posted on 08/10/2011 2:12:07 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Do you know why I love reptiles? It's because they don't play guitars.)
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