Cain's Tax Mutiny. New national sales tax on top of the income tax is a political killer

Wall Street Journal ^ | Oct 7, 2011 | WSJ Editorial

[Clairity]

The real political defect of the Cain plan is that it imposes a new national sales tax while maintaining the income tax. Mr. Cain's rates are seductively low, but the current income tax was introduced in 1913 with a top rate of 7% amid promises that it would never exceed 10%. By 1918 the top rate was 77%.

Part of Mr. Cain's appeal is his willingness to challenge political convention, and he certainly has with his tax proposal. Voters like that he isn't a lifetime politician but a successful business owner who has met a payroll and created jobs. But his endorsement of a sales tax on top of the income tax is a political gamble that would eventually finance an even larger entitlement state. Better to reform the devil we know—the income tax—than to introduce another devil and end up with ever-rising rates of both.

[Repeal The 17th]

wiki sez:
"For purposes of the U.S. Constitution, an excise tax can be defined as any indirect tax, or event tax.
An excise means any tax other than:
(1) a property tax or Ad-valorem tax by reason of its ownership;
(2) a tax per head tax or capitation tax by being present (very rare in the U.S.);
(3) an income tax paid directly to the government on income;
or a (4) sales tax which is paid on all sales except specifically exempted items.

An excise is imposed on listed specific taxable events or products and are usually not collected or paid directly by the consumer (a direct tax).

Excise taxes are collected by the producer or retailer and paid by them to the Internal Revenue Service, state or local tax agency.

Of course the consumer ultimately pays the excise tax which is added to the price of the product when it is sold. Often sales taxes are collected as a percentage of the cost of the product including any excise tax (a tax on a tax)."

[xzins]

We should do it right and not do it in a way that doesn’t work.

Like I said, a congress willing to vote out the income tax is a congress willing to repeal the income tax.

It’s insane to institute a sales tax without first ridding ourselves of the income tax.

That would be the addition of a new tax on top of the taxes we already have.

Odds are it would be higher taxes. And if anything on this forum has been constant for the entire time I’ve been here it is total rejection of higher taxes.

Now we want higher taxes? All because we trust some politician to someday get rid of some of them?

That’s crazy.

[Repeal The 17th]

The Constitution prohibits direct taxation,
the 16th amendment allows for direct taxation on income.

U.S. Constitution-Article 1-Section 9-Paragraph 4:
“No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.”

In order to be able to tax income, the 16th amendment was passed:
“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”

[tnlibertarian]

Is your state sales tax a VAT? It is more accurate to say that corporate income taxis a VAT because it is a hidden tax on the value of products and services.

Of course, you know that and you are simply being misleading because Cain is a threat to your candidate. How about supporting the conservative cause instead of hurting it by attacking other conservatives.

[SoJoCo]

I’d gladly pay a tax on my purchases, which I control beyond necessities, in exchange for not only a lower personal income tax rate, but a rate that is the same for everyone and the demise of the tax code, which would get rid of lobbying for deductions, etc.

Would you gladly vote for a man who has said he will double your taxes?

Know why Libs DON’T want a national sales tax? Because it gives the power of the purse to the people. They can easily and directly affect how much money the federal beast gets simply by changing their spending habits.

Or perhaps because it can reduce demand for goods. If 9% goes to the government then that's 9% you don't spend on goods and services in the private sector. Cut demand by 9% and what does that do for business?

[SoJoCo]

Don't waste my time. Address the facts that were directed to you.

You don't need to be here long to spot stuff that doesn't make sense.

[Scotsman will be Free]

If you believe that a 9% income tax is higher than, say, 28% you’ve got a math problem. 9+9=18 which is still a lot lower than currently is being paid by a large percentage of tax payers. Notice I said tax payers. A 9% corporate tax would put us in the bottom tier in the developed world and bring businesses here, creating more jobs. Also, if everyone has skin in the game the odds of taxes going up are much reduced.
The bottom 47% pay zero income tax and many of them get money in the form of the EIC.
Any idea how much time and money americans spend on doing their taxes? It’s insane.
Go ahead. Vote for the status quo. That is your privilege. I’m not totally enamored with this plan as I don’t know all of the ins and outs of it, but your idea of doing nothing until everything is perfect will result in nothing being done, as usual. Further, what pray tell, has kept the govt from raising taxes the past 80+ years? Nothing, and that’s why we pay through the nose right now.
My guess is you pay zero or very little in income taxes now, and wish to keep it that way. Can’t say as I blame you, but it doesn’t make you right.

[JCG]

I'm not totally enamored with this plan as I don't know all of the ins and outs of it, but your idea of doing nothing until everything is perfect will result in nothing being done, as usual.

Ditto that.

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[Carry_Okie]

Bad policy! Americans are taxed to death as it is.

It's a restructuring. It's effectively a lower rate. You are full of crap.

Dems regain power they change 9-9-9, to 12-12-12, or 15-15-15 or 18-18-18!

They could do that ANY time they get in power with or without Herman Cain.

Besides, Cain came up with his 999 tax plan for one reason. To grab attention. It will never be taken seriously.

Looks like it has grabbed attention of some pretty serious people (like Art Laffer), and at the expense of your preferred candidate, Rick Perry. So, this criticism of yours has NOTHING to do with the proposal and everything to do with advocacy. It is therefore the type of dishonesty characteristic of desperation. Looks like you're losing the GOP base no matter how much money the corporate moderates (who give money to both parties) throw at Mr. Perry. He's an empty suit.

[spokeshave]

.. . if Cain were flying a plane and the stall warning sounded he'd say "Wooooh, slow down!"

Surely you jest....

Cain was senior mathematician at the Navy missile establishment.

[Reagan Man]

No dishonesty or desperation here. Just my opinion that Cain's plan expands the tax code in America by adding a national sales tax to the mix. As I said, that opens up a Pandora's Box that we might not be able to get shut. With or without Perry running, I'd be of the same opinion. Cain's plan does not address the idea of a streamlined tax system which is the choice of this conservative. But rather a tax system that builds on the existing albatross of government control and intrusion. Again, it doesn't matter. Cain won't be the nominee and that means his plan will go nowhere.

Btw, Art Laffer did a great job for Reagan back in the 80`s, but I haven't paid much attention to him since he proudly proclaimed that he voted for Bill Clinton, TWICE! LOL

[Paperdoll]

But Herman Cain is NOT Barack Hussein Obama. If anyone can believe anything anymore, what altrnative do we have but to believe that Mr. Cain is a man of his word? He is the absolute best of the lot of them, IMHO.

[JCG]

Cain's plan does not address the idea of a streamlined tax system which is the choice of this conservative.

Cain's plan gets rid of the present tax system. Perhaps that isn't all the streamlining we need but it's a step in the right direction.

----

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[Smokin' Joe]

He is a radio talk show host and political amateur who has never held a Government executive office, similar to a familiar Community Organizer who was supposed to be a Washington Outsider who would reform all of Washington.

Cheap and undeserved shot, there. What job in industry has Obama EVER had?

Cain has business experience: cutting costs, trimming fat, and making payroll. That alone runs rings around Obama, but Cain did it with two different divisions of the same company. If you can do it twice, it isn't beginner's luck.

I've seen lots of FReepers rue the fact that Government, unlike business, keeps spending long after the checkbook is dry. I'd take someone with Business Executive experience over some d@mned "community organizer" sock-puppet any day.

If we are going to get away from the Government version of 'bidness as usual', maybe we need a fresh face with a different background, and one which does include executive experience in a real-world venue.

[Paperdoll]

I wish we could have a one on one with Herman Cain. The Federal Reserve is part of the Establishment, not part of what Congress has any jurisdiction over. Any way that is my understanding. I would rather have a man who is looking out for the good of his country than a man who takes his orders from the Establishment.

The important thing to remember is we must also vote the career politicians out of office and replace them with Mr. Smith, who goes to Washington, and term limits with no pensions!

[Reagan Man]

You’re back. Have you read the Constitution yet? Sure hope so. Its important that you get up to speed and stay informed before you make comments about taxes. You showed last night that you don’t know what your talking about.

[taildragger]

hat’s what his 9-9-9 economic plan is: 9% national sales tax (New goods only) 9% income tax 9% corporate tax I would reckon the income and corporate taxes don’t have few, if any, loopholes.

And what Herman is done is brilliantly devious if you think about it...

He has created ( in this Halloween season what some may consider a monster :-)) what is esentially half a Flat Tax and half a Fair Tax.

It may not make all from both camps happy, but if they had any brains they would shut up ( Fair Tax-ers primarily ) and get on board...

Think about it...

[fightinJAG]

This 999 plan is a joke. It penalizes large families with the sales tax

How so?

Let's say, for now, that it costs more to maintain a large family than a small family.

If prices go up, FOR ANY REASON, it still costs more to maintain a large family than a small family.

If prices go down, FOR ANY REASON, it still costs more to maintain a large family than a small family.

For example, if the state raises its sales tax -- or decreases its sales tax -- it still costs more to maintain a large family than a small family.

Where's the "penalty" in that?

Should large families not have to pay whatever it costs to maintain themselves, even though they are a large family?

Then there's the fact that large families do NOT always cost more to maintain than small families.

Example:

A family with seven kids. Mom takes the kids to Wal-Mart & buys each child a new pair of shoes costing $20. The shoe bill is $140.

A family with two kids. Mom takes one child to Wal-Mart & buys him a new pair of shoes costing $20. She takes the other kid to a specialty store because he requires custom-made orthotics. His shoes cost $225. The shoe bill is $245.

Using your argument, in this case, the smaller family would be "penalized" (by which I guess you mean "have to pay more").

So are you saying Cain's plan is a joke because large families might pay MORE THAN THEY DO NOW for stuff?

[JCG]

You're back. Have you read the Constitution yet? Sure hope so. Its important that you get up to speed and stay informed before you make comments about taxes. You showed last night that you don't know what your talking about.

Still bristling, I see. Why don't you just reply to what I post and cut the ad homninem which makes you look foolish?

----

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[fightinJAG]

How would those in empowerment zones be able (or even be motivated) to make the tax rate on everyone else increase?

I don’t see it.

The drumbeat now for higher taxes is solely motivated by the need to take more from producers so that it may be given to the takers.

If everyone is paying the same rate, the call for tax increases would be much more politically consequential than it is now.