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Cain's Tax Mutiny. New national sales tax on top of the income tax is a political killer
Wall Street Journal ^ | Oct 7, 2011 | WSJ Editorial

Posted on 10/08/2011 4:09:26 PM PDT by Clairity

The real political defect of the Cain plan is that it imposes a new national sales tax while maintaining the income tax. Mr. Cain's rates are seductively low, but the current income tax was introduced in 1913 with a top rate of 7% amid promises that it would never exceed 10%. By 1918 the top rate was 77%.

Part of Mr. Cain's appeal is his willingness to challenge political convention, and he certainly has with his tax proposal. Voters like that he isn't a lifetime politician but a successful business owner who has met a payroll and created jobs. But his endorsement of a sales tax on top of the income tax is a political gamble that would eventually finance an even larger entitlement state. Better to reform the devil we know—the income tax—than to introduce another devil and end up with ever-rising rates of both.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 999; biggovernment; cain; commie; eurovat; hermancain; lie; periwinklelies; perrybotliars; perryclowns; perryromneyvp; pizzaman; rinos4perry; taxes
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To: xzins

The corporate tax would be lowered to 9%. Not added on to what they already have. Lowered, get it? Just like the income tax, which you don’t pay.
Quit being so obtuse.


301 posted on 10/09/2011 12:28:10 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: fightinJAG

The point about revenue being cut in half is that it leaves something out of the equation. That something is social security and med. They are the amount that is left out.

Now, remember that Cain wants the Chilean model social security. That’s 10-20% of an income.

Therefore, we have 9-9-9+(10-20%) Then the revenues are the same again. So, that’s the real plan.

However, they won’t get that far. They will implement only the 9% sales tax, and then we’ll have it plus our present income tax. What is that: 28% + 9% sales tax + 14.6% social security + 3% med?

Adding a sales tax BEFORE you get rid of the income tax is simply a slick way to raise taxes.


302 posted on 10/09/2011 12:36:00 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

I am not being obtuse. I know exactly what the “ideal” 9-9-9 entails.

What I am saying is that the sales tax will be added but the other taxes not lowered. Do you understand? Cain’s plan is about “persuading” to lower the income tax.

Are you going to persuade Barney Frank? Harry Reid? Nancy Pelosi?

Give me a guarantee that the corporate will lower to 9%, that the personal income tax will lower to 9%, and that none of those taxes will ever be raised.

Prove they will never be raised with those people still in congress. Guarantee it.


303 posted on 10/09/2011 12:40:11 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: xzins

And prove that Congress will have a 2/3 majority vote to repeal the 16th Amendment.


304 posted on 10/09/2011 12:42:58 PM PDT by DTxAg (The Presidency is not an entry-level position.)
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To: xzins

Last post as we will have to agree to disagree. Give me a guarantee that our current tax system, which sucks, isn’t going to go up. You can’t. How are you going to persuade Barney Frank, Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi not to raise our taxes, add more burdens onto industry raising the cost of products, add more taxes onto gasoline(the list is endless). You aren’t.
Why are you saying that the sales tax will be added but the other taxes not lowered? That isn’t a 9-9-9 now is it. That’s just another tax. The plan, as I read it, was that the taxes would be at 9%. Nothing more and nothing less. Now you can claim that nothing else will be lowered and that Cain wants to raise taxes to 100%, but that isn’t what that particular plan is about.
Have a blessed day.


305 posted on 10/09/2011 12:48:19 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: PSYCHO-FREEP
Unfortunately, we can't pick the perfect candidate, one who would swoop down and clean out the swamp. So it goes. Republics are messy, and the more democracy involved, the messier it gets.

So here we are.

Cain is energizing the electorate. He's daring to offer something besides what Conservatives see as basically same 'ol same ol'. He isn't pushing a lighter version of socialism than Obama, but is pushing it away. He doesn't have the 'illegal' baggage another candidate has, he hasn't failed to accomplish his business goals, and hasn't made any statements the press has been able to spin as wild-eyed.

He doesn't have a political background, but what we really need is a practical leader, someone who will get the Congress (hopefully a Republican one) to get the job done or look like putrescent asses for failing to--and that is a skill honed in a business environment, where he did not have the force of laws to back him up. (If you don't think successful business management involves political skills, you haven't been paying attention.)

I'm not looking for "Conservative Utopia", 'cause that isn't going to happen, but for the last 10 presidential elections, I have been looking for someone who will step in the Right direction.

None of the candidates will be 'perfect', and the world won't be made so short of The Second Coming. It has taken a long time to make this mess, and it won't change unless someone is willing to head back toward our Constitutional foundations. Balancing the budget is part of that, and just one part, but so much of what does that will get us headed back toward having Government within its Constitutional constraints.

Frankly, it would be a first in my lifetime, and I'm a great grandpa.

306 posted on 10/09/2011 1:11:40 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Reagan Man
Ha! Just an agitator, eh? Well, at least you're honest about it.

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307 posted on 10/09/2011 1:35:10 PM PDT by JCG
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To: xzins
UNTIL they get rid of the income tax that we have...

That's part of Cain's plan, isn't it? Get rid of the present tax system in favor of 999?

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308 posted on 10/09/2011 1:37:51 PM PDT by JCG
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To: xzins
Adding a sales tax BEFORE you get rid of the income tax is simply a slick way to raise taxes.

Cain is a tax cutter, not a tax raiser.

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309 posted on 10/09/2011 1:41:14 PM PDT by JCG
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To: xzins
However, they won’t get that far. They will implement only the 9% sales tax, and then we’ll have it plus our present income tax

Again, you are evaluating the concept based on an assumed process.

There's no doubt there's a process risk here.

But first, I think, we have to decide if the concept works, how well it would work, and how much we want it to work.

Then we figure out how to manage the process so that the outcome is what we want, not what we don't want.

310 posted on 10/09/2011 1:49:24 PM PDT by fightinJAG (Herman Cain actually IS a rocket scientist.)
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To: xzins

Also I have no indication that a President Cain would sign into law a plan that completely butchered his 999 proposal.


311 posted on 10/09/2011 1:50:21 PM PDT by fightinJAG (Herman Cain actually IS a rocket scientist.)
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To: JCG

No, dumbo! Truth detector is more like it. But if my exposing nitwits and malcontents gets you yahoos agitated too, its double satisfaction.


312 posted on 10/09/2011 1:58:43 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Reagan Man
No, dumbo! Truth detector is more like it. But if my exposing nitwits and malcontents gets you yahoos agitated too, its double satisfaction.

You have a rather exalted opinion of yourself. An opion shared by, well, yourself.

----

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313 posted on 10/09/2011 2:39:51 PM PDT by JCG
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To: JCG

Another bullseye! You are easy pickins. LOL


314 posted on 10/09/2011 2:52:50 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Reagan Man
Another bullseye! You are easy pickins. LOL

You're hilarious RM. I get the picture of Cousin Vinny blindly firing into the dark from the front porch because the little screech owl scared him. Keep tryin' for those bullseyes, though. You're sure to hit something if you spew long enough.

----

Send treats to the troops...
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315 posted on 10/09/2011 3:15:18 PM PDT by JCG
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To: JCG

And you’re sad and pathetic, not to mention, smug.

I could throw darts at you with my eyes closed and hit the target all day long. You’re the 800 pound gorilla. Bingo!


316 posted on 10/09/2011 3:34:29 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: DTxAg

I don’t have to prove it if they can’t even get enough votes to put in a 9% flat tax.

If you’re no more confident than that; if you have no certainty that this plan is even going to happen, then what the heck are you even arguing for?

DT, you are not a tax raiser on a wish and a prayer. You just aren’t.


317 posted on 10/09/2011 4:47:45 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: Scotsman will be Free

Scot, it isn’t about Cain. It’s about Congress. The plan is not going to happen...with the exception of the 9% sales tax which they’d gladly let through first chance they get.


318 posted on 10/09/2011 4:50:42 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: fightinJAG

Jag, you know this system. You know the system is process.


319 posted on 10/09/2011 4:53:47 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: xzins

xzins, I was agreeing with you. I think 9-9-9 is a horrible idea.


320 posted on 10/09/2011 4:59:21 PM PDT by DTxAg (The Presidency is not an entry-level position.)
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To: DTxAg

DT...I just knew you weren’t a tax increaser. :>)


321 posted on 10/09/2011 5:13:37 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: fightinJAG
Is there a national sales tax right now? No, there is not. Cain is bringing a whole new avenue of taxation into the discussion. The good news is that I see that his plan is now getting a lot of attention, and it's getting the bad reviews it deserves.

If he really thinks it's so hot, he should run for governor and prove its merits there. But of course, he couldn't get out of a GA primary.

Cain reminds me of Huckabee, who also pitched the national sales tax boondoggle. Huckabee's big mistake was actually serving as governor and having a record. If he were just a talker, with no political record, he could do at least as well as Cain is doing now.

They have a lot in common though. Cain will parley his newfound fame into something lucrative. Palin's another one who did the same thing. Conservative shucking and jiving has become big business.

322 posted on 10/09/2011 6:00:59 PM PDT by Huck (NO FEDERAL SALES TAX -- UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES)
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To: xzins

Yes. But you can’t let process lead.

I agree with everything you say about the process and its pitfalls and tendency toward certain unfavorable results.

But process can’t lead the decision-making, IMHO. First, decide on the plan. Then determine whether the process can, somehow, some way, support (bring about) the plan.

If so, then go with it.

If not, THEN make a new plan or try to modify the process to support the plan.

All I’m suggesting is this author is saying the plan can’t work because the process won’t support, therefore the plan is bad. And that’s not good reasoning.


323 posted on 10/09/2011 6:40:04 PM PDT by fightinJAG (Herman Cain actually IS a rocket scientist.)
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To: SoJoCo
"Cain has specifically stated it would not apply to used items or housing."

[Response]: Cain's own website says no such thing. A 9% sales tax with no exceptions mentioned

You're right that his website needs to step it up on detail. But Cain has said more than once that it would not include housing or used items. None of the state income taxes include housing or used items-----for extremely obvious reasons.

324 posted on 10/09/2011 7:42:37 PM PDT by cookcounty (2012 choice: It's the Tea Party or the Slumber Party.)
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To: cookcounty
You're right that his website needs to step it up on detail. But Cain has said more than once that it would not include housing or used items. None of the state income taxes include housing or used items-----for extremely obvious reasons.

So Cain contradicts himself. Which version are we to believe?

325 posted on 10/10/2011 4:31:09 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: fightinJAG
If not, THEN make a new plan or try to modify the process to support the plan.

I'm a long-time fair tax supporter, so this is where I'm at. Any notion of a gradual transition to the fair tax is a little naive in my opinion. That notion needs to go back to the drawing board.

326 posted on 10/10/2011 6:39:56 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: Clairity

When all is said and done, 999 whould have to be passed by congress, and it won’t. But a Hermen Cain POTUS would not frighten me...it would certainly be a 180 from Obama and a step in the right direction...and SOMETHING would be done about the deficit and spending and taxes.


327 posted on 10/10/2011 6:55:14 AM PDT by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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To: SoJoCo
"You're right that his website needs to step it up on detail. But Cain has said more than once that it would not include housing or used items. None of the state income sales taxes include housing or used items-----for extremely obvious reasons."

RESPONSE: "So Cain contradicts himself. Which version are we to believe?"

What contradiction?. His website says nothing about sales taxes on housing or used items, and in his speeches and interviews he has stated these would not be taxed. It defies common sense. How can you police garage sales? Next thing you'll be saying he wants to tax singing the national anthem because his website didn't say he wouldn't.

328 posted on 10/10/2011 7:46:33 AM PDT by cookcounty (2012 choice: It's the Tea Party or the Slumber Party.)
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To: ThomasMore
When all is said and done, 999 whould have to be passed by congress, and it won't. But a Hermen Cain POTUS would not frighten me...it would certainly be a 180 from Obama and a step in the right direction...and SOMETHING would be done about the deficit and spending and taxes.

Right on. Hearty applause!

----

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329 posted on 10/10/2011 8:24:11 AM PDT by JCG
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To: cookcounty
His website says nothing about sales taxes on housing or used items, and in his speeches and interviews he has stated these would not be taxed.

If he's constantly making this stuff up as he goes along it's hard to gauge exactly what the impact of his plan is. For example, he claims that his 9-9-9 plan is revenue neutral. But if he's constantly adding things to the list of tax exempt items then it's hard to see how that is possible. What set of figures is he going from at any given moment?

It defies common sense. How can you police garage sales?

OK then how about this? I go to my local Ford dealer. If I buy a new car from him it's taxed an additional 9%. What if I buy a used car from him? Taxed or not? What about an existing house? A pair of pants from the Goodwill Store? Are those taxed?

Next thing you'll be saying he wants to tax singing the national anthem because his website didn't say he wouldn't.

Cain's site doesn't say that service charges are exempt. If I contract someone to sing the National Anthem then that is a service, and I would expect it to be taxed at 9% just like a furnace repair or a haircut or a doctor's visit.

330 posted on 10/10/2011 8:34:56 AM PDT by SoJoCo
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