Posted on 12/16/2011 8:02:44 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Twelver Shiites believe they can force the Twelfth Mahdi to appear by igniting chaos and destruction.
Amadinnerjacket is a Twelver, as are most of the ruling clerics in Iran.
They believe the Twelfth Mahdi is in “occlusion” and has been for several centuries.
They believe he will show up to usher in the “peace of islam”.. i.e. Shariah for all, slaughter for ‘infidels’ and destruction of the ‘enemies of islam’.
These are not rational people we are dealing with.
They honestly believe that by killing large numbers of people they can make their ‘messiah’ appear.
Look up twelver shi’a.
It’s a real trip.
I just listened again. Bachman stated "We know without a shadow of a doubt that Iran will take a nuclear weapon. They will use it to wipe our ally Israel of the face of the map and they've stated they will use it against the United States of America."
So did I my FRiend, I also remember the air raid siren tests on the last Friday of every month at 10:00 AM
The difference then is we were facing an enemy who wanted to win, to live and had much to lose. Iran want to martyr its self to bring about the 12th Imam, or Mahdi.
Yes, the odds of dying in a terror attack for you and me are pretty high, but what American City and how many American lives are you willing to risk too test your theory? What about an EMP attack launched from a ship off the Atlantic?
What we are facing with Iran and islam in general is in no way comparable to the cold war, two totally different enemies.
What we should be doing and missed a tremendous opportunity to do so was/is aid the Iranian (Persian) people in toppling their mad mullah regime, otherwise all out, maybe nuclear war will be a certainty.
Or do we wait until we have no choice, we are weak and our enemies know our every vulnerability? I choose the former.
If Iran gets a nuke, that is exactly where we'll be, we will have no choices.
>
This is interesting, in case you missed it:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/14/us-will-leave-iraqi-airspace-clear-for-strategic-i/
I think that Bachmann falsely made the Iranian nuclear threat to Israel and the US seem absolutely confirmed, real and immediate. So if one believes that how do they not act?
Will a President Ron Paul stand still and say - this isnt our business because if Iran wants to go to war with Israel, its Israels problem, not ours? They have the capability to fight back, so leave them alone. We cant spend money and lives on this foreign war that does not concern us, not when our debt is nearing $20 trillion. Ron Paul seems to be giving me the impression that thats EXACTLY what he would do. At least hes not giving me the confidence, not based on his rhetoric and body language that he wont react that way.
And that is your impression and I respect that even if I don't agree with it.
IMHO, it's because Ron Paul is a physician. He's dealt with life and death every day of his career -- learning how to cure a problem without killing the patient -- he's a thinker. It's all been life & death to him, which is why he doesn't rile or physically posture when dealing with things like that in ways that I see others do. It's not about ego posturing or aggression. But in all honesty, if God forbid all hell broke loose in some hypothetical scenario in that auditorium last night and no one knew what was happening or what to do, I'd put my bets on following that old man to safety rather than any of the others. He's the one who'd keep his cool and risk his butt if necessary.
The one who scares me on this issue with his body language and attitude is Newt. He reminds me of someone I'm related to -- a smart-ass, self-important sneering little dictator who'd fold when the heat is on -- who thinks he's smarter than everyone else on every subject, but he's not, he's an empty windbag. I've known guys like him -- in life and in business and the only thing frightens me about them is how easily they fool people with their supposed "intelligence" that is supposed to take the place of having any real core values whatever other than self-preservation.
But again, those are all impressions -- yours and mine. Different, but while you can argue facts, you can't argue with people's feelings about things.
I promise that I will read it but not right now. Today is my birthday, so I am going to take some time off of politics for now to go enjoy myself. Later!
Happy Birth Day FRiend!
Wadda ya doin here, go enjoy your day!
Point is?
Correcting your response.
Before you make Ron Paul the guy you would want to follow and call Bachmann the only liar in this exchange, you ought to ALSO consider the false accusation that Ron Paul made last night when he said that someone in the panel is declaring WAR on 1.2 Billion Muslims and saying all Muslims are the same ( as he did in the debate ).
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE THE SAME OR THAT WE WILL GO TO WAR WITH ALL 1.2 MILLION MUSLIMS. NOT BACHMANN, NOT SANTORUM and NOT GINGRICH.
To say that we have to stand up to Iran DOES NOT MEAN we want to make war on ALL 1.2 Billion Muslims. Ron Paul is striking at a straw man here.
So clearly, Ron Paul is NOT being truthful.
The difference in opinion lies in whether Iran’s leader DID threaten to wipe Israel off the map.
You might believe Iran’s leaders harbor not such ambitions, but others do ( and they have their reasons to do so ).
So, I will grant that Bachmann has her facts wrong, but hey, Ron Paul isn’t immune from exagerrated accusations as well.
BTW, how is Ron Paul so sure that Iran is not imminently at the point of obtaining nukes? The fact is Ron Pauls assertion that they have no evidence may ALSO be wrong.
Otherwise, why would the The IAEA expressed concerns in their recent report about the “military dimensions” of Iran’s nuclear program? ( if there is no evidence ( as in ZERO), why would the IAEA express concern about military dimensions?)
What if Iran is HIDING their evidence?
In fact, the IAEA flagged a number of DUAL USE technologies under development by the Iranians that could have military applications.
All we can say for now is we don’t have hard evidence.
That does not mean that we should not prepare for such a possibility.
RE: And that is your impression and I respect that even if I don’t agree with it.
Well if you don’t agree with it, there is one way for you to bring me to your side .... I need you to tell me and show where in Ron Paul’s previous statements he said that IF ( emphasis ) Iran were to threaten Israel and go to war with her, he would help Israel militarily....
Go on, just give me that money quote.
Why do I doubt Ron paul on this? I’ll tell you why...
Previously, Ron Paul said that with the countries around Iran, like China, Israel, India having nuclear weapons, why wouldnt Iran want a weapon, as theyd be given more respect internationally?
This says a lot -— He seems unconcerned that the Ayatollahs in Iran who have a theology of ushering the last days, will have nukes. He seems to think that they will be as rational as the Indians or Chinese.
BTW, I DO realize that Ahmadinejad did insist that Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons. He did insist that their nuclear research is for peaceful activities.
I AM AWARE OF THAT.
The question is this -— Do we believe him? My answer is NO.
Ron Paul seems to say YES.
And this is where we part ways.
In fact, In a Sioux City Republican debate, Asked what he would do if given proof that Iran had obtained a nuclear bomb, Paul kept to his isolationist ground that he wouldnt engage in another war in the Middle East.
In other words, my suspicion that Ron Paul would leave Israel alone to fend for herself HAS GOOD SUPPORT based on his statements.
Now, if you personally don’t think the USA has any obligation to help Israel against her enemies, why don’t you just say so?
At least everyone in this thread will know that this is where you stand. But please... you have ways to go to convince me that my impression about Ron Paul believing that Israel is not our business, is wrong headed.
When did it get to be conservative to waste billions blowing up things in the middle east, only to spend billions building roads and schools over there, when the roads are crumbling over here. We are out of money.
I'm sure it'll be much cheaper when Iran makes good on the whole destroy the Great Satan and "Death to America" thing.
If we want security, pull troops out of Iraq and put them on the border with Mexico. The people invading from the south believe they own the land. Get the heck out of the middle east and every where else and take care of what is happening at home.
Ron Paul believe in open borders. There is a reason why NumbersUSA gives him a failing grade. And there is no reason why we can't take out Iran's nuclear program, seal our borders, and deport illegals as Michele Bachmann wants.
What were we doing to Muslims when the Barbary States declared war on the US in the 18th Century?
Paul needs his eyes checked because Iran hates the Great Satan. Selling out Israel may buy us a generation, but Iran will always find a reason to attack. REfusing to allow Muslims to come to the US, or simply refusing to pay the jizya and convert are also justifications.
Ritter was a compromised pedophile.
Your comment is nonsense, the Gov’t is responsible for Defense spending, but that doesn’t mean it gets a blank check!
Interesting article. Maybe Israel will use this one year opportunity to deal with Iran -- and I have no problem with that. I'd say, "Go Israel! You think that Iran's nuke potential is a threat to you, you have every right to do what you think is necessary to preserve and protect your sovereign country!"
What I'd have a problem with is us doing it or directing/using Israel to do it. Because, I think that we (the US policy wonks) are using Israel for everything and anything we want to do in the ME, and we are leaving Israel holding the bag for our policies.
If I were Netanyahu after that debacle with Obama some months back, I'd have left the White House giving Obama & the US the three fingered salute. Israel doesn't need us -- we need Israel to "morally" justify our ME presence. And I believe that we are actually doing Israel more harm than good.
Just because the Gov't is responsible for Defense spending doesn't mean they can spend whatever they want.
Defense spending is necessary but it is still government spending and hence a drain in the economy.
No one is talking about the private vs public sectors, so stop raising a red herring.
Define exactly what you mean by Government intrusion in the free market through Defense spending.
Never said that-you can’t read.
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