I think Poster 25 cuts right to the heart of the matter and puts the "universe creates itself" theory in perspective:
"It's kinda like a tornado .. tearing through a salvage yard and creating a corvette in it's wake!"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
The evidence keeps mounting that something happened in Israel about 2000 years ago.
Hoyle’s Fallacy: the junkyard tornado, is a term for mathematician Fred Hoyle’s flawed statistical analysis applied to evolutionary origins.