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To: spetznaz; sukhoi-30mki
How would a Paki F-16 (newer block) with AMRAAM stack up against the Mirage 2000 with MICA.

What difference would the RADARs on the two make ?

5 posted on 01/05/2012 2:06:53 AM PST by IndianChief
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To: IndianChief; sukhoi-30mki
Impossible to tell. This is because any engagement between the two will not involve two planes but rather a whole spectrum of assets working in synchrony. This is the major error made when doing a X vs Y ...whatever response one gives is, most likely, erroneous. The Pakistani F-15 Blk 50 will not be flying by itself ...it will have other Vipers as well, together with air (AEW/C) and ground control radars assisting it. It will probably be in a strike configuration or it may be in an air-defense configuration. Looking at the Indian side shows a similar situation. The M2000 will not be by itself ...it will probably be in a strike package that includes other aircraft, with some SU-30MKIs playing the role of air-superiority (and the strike package comprised of other MKIs and M2000s), and they will have the Phalcon AEW/C backing them, and this strike package may even include whichever plane wins the MMRCA.

Thus, the radars of the F-16 and M2000 will be the first to come into play.

As for the missiles it is always tricky looking at the range provided since in many cases it is the maximum range. In real conflict making shots at maximum range will lead to no kills. Missile pK (probability of kill) rapidly falls off, and most pilots will try to ensure the target is within the missile's no-escape zone (which also means that your radar can detect the other guy before he detects you, but you are still unable to use your missile). First look is important (it allows you to decide what your next course of action will be), but it doesn't always translate to first kill. Also, an interesting exercise would be to research the pKs of AMRAAMs ...the AMRAAM has a pK of 0.59 (according to a RAND study called 'Air Combat Past, Present and Future' ...which is a very good read), with 17 AMRAAMs fired leading to 10 kills. Also, of those 10 AMRAAM kills:

- 4 were not beyond visual range

- Iraqi MiGs shot down were fleeing and non-maneuvering

- Serb J-21 had no radar or Electronic Countermeasures (ECM)

- US Army UH-60 not expecting attack; no radar or ECM (a US Army helicopter was mistakenly shot down by a F-15C)

- Serb MiG-29 FULCRUMS had inoperative radars

- No reports of ECM use by any victim

- No victim had comparable BVR weapon

- No victim had comparable BVR weapon

It is easy to see why on other threads I make fun of those who claim that the US doesn't need F-22s because its F-15s and F-16s 'slaughtered' the Iraqi airforce. Please! That was like sending the LA Lakers team to play against the 4th grade team Sister's of Mercy Girls Preparatory school and then claiming a mighty win. Against a capable foe (e.g. China) the characteristics that made the Iraqi airwar a turkey shoot will simply not exist. Anyways, I digress.

Comparing plane to plane, or missile to missile, really doesn't work unless there is a significant performance differential (e.g. comparing the Meteor missile to an AMRAAM or a MICA; comparing a Raptor to a MiG-29 or F-15; or comparing a Virginia/Astute to a Chinese SSN). However, when comparing analogues it becomes more of a speculative guessing game (e.g. comparing a F-15 to a modern SU-30 variant; comparing a Virginia SSN to an Astute SSN, comparing the Iris-T to the Python 4).

Any (hot) event that will bring a Pakistani F-16 together with an Indian Mirage 2000 will mean that both planes will be in the company of other planes and aerial assets, will be in different configurations. For instance if the F-16 gets shot down (assuming it loses) it will not be shot down by the M2000 (it would be shot down by a MKI or the MMRCA winner unless something really goes wrong).

My opinion? Both are equal. They are quite similar, and both countries are quite adept at using their respective airframes (the Indians adore the Mirage 2000, and the Pakistani have the F-16 as their premier plane).

What about in real life?

Well, in the 1990s there was an incident over the Aegean Sea where a Greek Mirage 2000 faced off against a Turkish F-16. Both are NATO countries, and both have respectable airforces. One thing led to another, and in the end the Mirage shot down the F-16 (which was a 2 seater, with one pilot dying and the other managing to eject). Does that mean the Mirage is better than the Viper? Nope ...all it means is that in that one incident the Greek pilot was better than the Turkish one.

Both aircraft are the same, and in a fight between the Indians and Pakistanis the main worry of the F-16 pilots would be the MKI (while the Pakistani army would be watching out for Mirage 2000s and Jaguars releasing death from above).

6 posted on 01/05/2012 3:20:25 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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