Romney's tithing raises issue in other churches

Sacramento Bee ^ | January 26, 2012 | Jennifer Garza

[Elsie]

- by GOD! - you'd do it TOO!!!

 

Temple Recommend Questions

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1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

              Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
              Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

Temple Recommend Questions

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1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

              Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
              Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

[Elsie]

Tithing has its roots in the Old Testament – "Bring all the tithes to the storehouse," from the book of Malachi – and means one-tenth of income.

It DOES??

Before or after TAXES?

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Deuteronomy 14:22-29

King James Version (KJV)

²²Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

²³And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

²⁴And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

²⁵Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

²⁶And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

²⁷And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

²⁸At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

²⁹And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

 

 

Leviticus 27:30 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.

Deuteronomy 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.

Nehemiah 13:12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms.

 

Ezekiel 44:30 The best of all the firstfruits and of all your special gifts will belong to the priests. You are to give them the first portion of your ground meal so that a blessing may rest on your household.

[Elsie]

Tithing has its roots in the Old Testament – "Bring all the tithes to the storehouse," from the book of Malachi – and means one-tenth of income.

Salvation by GRACE has it's roots in the OT, but is FULFILLED, in Christ, in the New; where THIS verse is found:

2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

[Elsie]

This follows on to the Old Testament practice, but isn’t something actually commanded in the New Testament.

Why do CHRISTIANs seem to NOT know what is in ACTS, the 15th chapter???

[Elsie]

Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem

 ¹ Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” ² This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. ³ The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. ⁴ When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

 ⁵ Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

 ⁶ The apostles and elders met to consider this question. ⁷ After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. ⁸ God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. ⁹ He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. ¹⁰ Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? ¹¹ No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

 ¹² The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. ¹³ When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. ¹⁴ Simon^[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. ¹⁵ The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

 ¹⁶ “‘After this I will return
   and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
   and I will restore it,
¹⁷ that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
   even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’^[b]—
 ¹⁸ things known from long ago.^[c]

 ¹⁹ “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. ²⁰ Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. ²¹ For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

 ²² Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. ²³ With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,

   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

 ²⁴ We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. ²⁵ So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— ²⁶ men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁷ Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. ²⁸ It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: ²⁹ You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

   Farewell.

 ³⁰ So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. ³¹ The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. ³² Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. ³³ After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. ^{[34] [d] 35} But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas

 ³⁶ Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” ³⁷ Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, ³⁸ but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. ³⁹ They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, ⁴⁰ but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. ⁴¹ He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

[rusty millet]

Actually, tithing is addressed in part in the New Testament:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”
Mat 23:23

The larger lesson is that the Pharisees were meticulous about tithing, even to the minutia of the spices they received, but failed in the matter of righteousness in character.

The smaller issue often overlooked here is that Jesus is also saying to them “do not neglect to continue in your tithes” even with the expectation of holy and righteous living.

[Elsie]

Dave Ramsey says tithe 10% and he isn’t Mormon.

There are legalists everywhere....

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John 6:28-29 (niv)

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[AppyPappy]

“If everyone shared your view there would be no churches or pastors to lead them “

You are aware that Mormons don’t pay their pastors, right?

[Scoutmaster]

I'm not LDS and I'm not ex-LDS, and I have no problem with Mitt Romney tithing to the LDS church. It's his money, his decision, and LDS teaching and practice.

I'm quite familiar with the arguments: tithing is required for a Temple Recommend and to enter the Celestial Kingdom; the LDS Church doesn't disclose even semi-detailed public financials or to those who pay tithes; the LDS Church has massive income-producing holdings in cattle ranches, malls, radio stations, and the like; the LDS Church does very little humanitarian work other than for LDS members, and that's done primarily from fast offerings and other offerings and not from tithes; and so on.

But I'm not the person paying the tithe, Mitt is. If he and other LDS members want to tithe, or tithe because they've been taught that they must tithe to be exalted, enter the Celestial Kingdom, and be Families Forever, then that's essentially LDS business.

As for the comment: "I guess Mormons understand the principal: “givers gain”." That may be true, but they also realize that they can't attend their children's weddings in the Temple, or watch their grandchildren's baptisms in the Temple, or be married for eternity to their sealed spouses, without staying current on their tithing. And if they fall behind, they have to make it up in future years. Exaltation's a gain, and a lot to gain. But it's your choice.

As for the statement: "The correct LDS phrase is "10% of your increase".

First, the First Presidency has determined that means 10% of your gross. Second, there were two revelations on tithing. Doctrine & Covenants 120, which sets up the Council on the Disposition of Tithing is the one that's always cited.

However, Tithing for Mormons (and I say "Mormons," because the revelation came before the current LDS church was established - this was before the leadership crisis, and the hyphen in Latter-Day Saints), came from D&C 119, and had two parts, in pertinent part:

“I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop…and this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.” (D&C 119: 1, 3)

“And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever…” (D&C 119: 4)

“Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.” (D&C 119: 5)

So with the initial revelation, Mormons paid their surplus to the bishop. And only those who paid a surplus paid 10% of their interest. The communal nature of paying your surplus was a common thread in early Mormon thought - the United Order involved common property.

As for the comment: "One of the questions you answer at your temple recommend interview is, "Do you pay a full and honest tithe?"."

I don't believe that's the current wording. I believe the current question is: "Are you a full-tithe payer?

These thoughts offered for historical perspective and to clear up what I believe may be some mistakes. Again, my view is that it's Mitt's money, Mitt's church, and LDS teachings. I support the right of Mitt, FR members, and others to their religious beliefs, although they may differ from mine. When I butt heads with "LDS", it's over the issue of faithful history versus academic history, not over whether LDS members should have a right to believe and practice their beliefs.

[Elsie]

Now, if you want to go BE the missionary, I guess that’s a good reason not to tithe, since you won’t have any money.

Good point.

Did the tribe of LEVI tithe?

[Elsie]

I’m making the point that legalism, a strict requirement to donate a percentage of income, is contrary to New Testament scripture.

LEGALISM is the solid foundation of MORMONism.

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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 89

 

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

 

1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

 

  1 A ^aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

  2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the ^aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and ^bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

  3 Given for a principle with ^apromise, adapted to the capacity of the ^bweak and the weakest of all ^csaints, who are or can be called saints.

  4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of ^aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of ^bconspiring men in the last days, I have ^cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

  5 That inasmuch as any man ^adrinketh ^bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

  6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, ^apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

  7 And, again, ^astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

  8 And again, tobacco is not for the ^abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

  9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

  10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome ^aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

  11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with ^aprudence and ^bthanksgiving.

  12 Yea, ^aflesh also of ^bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ^csparingly;

  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be ^aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or ^bfamine.

  14 All ^agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

  15 And ^athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

  16 All grain is good for the ^afood of man; as also the ^bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

  17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

  18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

  19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

  20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

  21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the ^adestroying angel shall ^bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

---

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

[Elsie]

Yeah...

the above (Word of Wisdom) IS what is mentioned in those Temple Recommend questions posted earlier.

[Scoutmaster]

I may be wrong.

Jeff, is the current TR question: "Do you pay a full and honest tithe?" or "Are you a full-tithe payer?"

If the former, when did the question change?

[Elsie]

You felt compelled to do so.

Ooooh... I just read something about that!

[Graybeard58]

Paul challenged Peter over this line of thought.

That's putting it mildly. I'd say, Paul got in Peter's face.

[Elsie]

It sounds to me like Mormons practice legalism.

Practice;

Preach;

Teach;

and chisel in stone!

[Elsie]

It says "commandments" in my copy.

If I wuz MITT; it would NOT be the TITHE that I would worry about...

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

[Graybeard58]

As in that famous movie about the 10 Suggestions? It says "commandments" in my copy. Check Malachi 3:8-10.

Jesus fulfilled that law and every other O.T. law. Quote me some New Covenant law please.

If you build a new house will you be sure to build a battlement on the roof to keep people from falling off? It's "the law" you know.

[Elsie]

It says "commandments" in my copy.

I'll bet your copy ALSO says....

Galatians 3 New International Version (NIV) Galatians 3

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

[Elsie]

I always get more from money I give. What I contribute always comes back to me.

Joel!

I didn't know you posted on FR!

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Hebrews 11

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.