What Kids Now Learn in College (Save your money. Here’s a list of the lessons they'll be taught)

National Review ^ | 02/29/2012 | Dennis Prager

[SaraJohnson]

Leftists would take over and dumb down the content of the professional qualification tests. Suddenly, white engineers would have to be self hating socialists in order to pass the tests.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

-——Demanding they support non-viable courses is nothing less than extortion———

The root cause is third-party payment, I.e., taxpayer-funded loans.

The current higher ed system is bloated and antiquated. Much would pass away in a truly free market.

[Lou L]

Depending on your major or your area of concentration, your child may also learn how to work on a project team, because "that's how we all work in the business world, and we all have to learn how to collaborate to accomplish things!"

Then, on your project team, your child will inevitably learn that not everyone on a project team does their fair share (where have I heard that before?), but everyone's grade will be impacted if the project fails. The competent and caring students will generally step in and do the work because they're concerned about their grades and want to succeed (these students generally grow to be Republicans.

The lazy and incompetent students will make excuses about why they couldn't complete their part of the project. They will resent the fact the other members of their team had to step in, but they'll still expect a good grade because it wasn't their fault. (These students generally grow to be Democrats...or, they drop out of school and go defecate on police cars.)

[Vaduz]

For Wilson, Freedman, and countless other university presidents, the purpose of a college education is to question (actually, reject) ones father’s values. No fine line between education and brain washing,before a kid goes to college teach them not to take the bait.

[Paved Paradise]

You are being silly. I went back to college and graduated last year, at age 53! There were no courses on accepting gays or the evil of guns. I will assume you are speaking with some measure of hyperbole.

The truth is that the secular and Lefty beliefs are permeating the humanities, so for instance when I took my course on Middle East History, I got a huge dose of the Palestinian view and how “evil” the Jews are. The books we had to read were ALL slanted towards the Palestinians and none showed the other side.

But that doesn’t mean it’s not good to know about Michaelangelo, DaVinci, or the whole movement that came about out of the “Salon” artists. Art can move people and uplift them, as can music and great works of literature. Riding a horse might be nice as well, but you are equating completely different pleasures or pursuits.

I love the outdoors, but I love going to museums. I love to travel and the fact that I know something of history (not just this country’s) and the arts and culture enriches my life.

I don’t know you, obviously, but I can’t imagine you would mesh well in a variety of circles. And the very fact that you can’t see a difference in having a Black Belt and understanding Sophocles (or even Shakespeare) is absurd.

I’ll just leave you with one thought. I am a reader. I happen to like William Styron, who wrote “Sophie’s Choice.” At some point in his life, Styron became terribly depressed and suicidal, but he was listening to a particularly beautiful piece of music one evening (and I don’t recall the composer). He made the decision that as long as that kind of beauty existed in the world, he would choose to live and so he got help. I hardly think that watching the Kentucky Derby (or even riding a horse), much less doing karate would have impacted him that way.

[Paved Paradise]

I could not agree more. I learned about that college via a young lady who I now call a dear friend. She is a product of that school and there is not a finer person around.

[Paved Paradise]

LOL! Oh, Lou, you are so right. I went to college as a mature adult who had worked in the corporate world for 30 years. Had started and stopped college a couple of times but finally finished at age 53.

I HATED it when I had to work in groups. I have a strong work ethic, but found that I would be doing 75 percent or more of the work. Not to mention that I had to “babysit” the little brats and constantly email them to make sure they were doing THEIR part.

I had one kid - and she was actually a really good kid assigned a few tasks. I ended up doing something that was part of her job. When I brought it in, she said, “I thought I was supposed to do that,” and I told her I was sorry but because she hadn’t done it, I assumed she was NOT going to do it. I wasn’t going to wait for her to do it the last minute. She sheepishly admitted she was a terrible procrastinator.

And the quality...sheesh...I won’t even go there. I heard the following constantly: “Well, it’s good enough.” Umm, not it isn’t.

[Mr Rogers]

"I love the outdoors, but I love going to museums. I love to travel and the fact that I know something of history (not just this country’s) and the arts and culture enriches my life.

I don’t know you, obviously, but I can’t imagine you would mesh well in a variety of circles. And the very fact that you can’t see a difference in having a Black Belt and understanding Sophocles (or even Shakespeare) is absurd."

Ummm...if you get thrilled by looking at 'art', have a nut. It does NOT make you a well-rounded person, any more than my knowledge of ballistics makes me a well-rounded person.

Between Sophocles & a horse, I'd choose a horse. A horse can teach you lessons applicable to raising kids or dealing with co-workers. Training a horse can teach a person more about leadership than reading books of psychology.

"At some point in his life, Styron became terribly depressed and suicidal, but he was listening to a particularly beautiful piece of music one evening (and I don’t recall the composer). He made the decision that as long as that kind of beauty existed in the world, he would choose to live and so he got help. I hardly think that watching the Kentucky Derby (or even riding a horse), much less doing karate would have impacted him that way."

My guess is that if Styron spent time riding horses or practicing the martial arts, he wouldn't have been as likely to turn suicidal to begin with. Doing either with a minimum of competence requires a combination of self-awareness AND an awareness and understanding of those around you. Music can uplift, but also depress. Music & books can allow a person to spiral down into a pit of self-centered pity.

Try that with a horse, or in karate, and the physical pain of getting tossed by the horse or kicked by your opponent will refocus your mind on those outside of you.

Also, regular physical exercise can do wonders for clearing the mind and reducing stress. As a group, I'd bet joggers are less suicidal than writers or philosophers...

Reading a story of a man who kills his Dad and marries his Mom doesn't do a whole lot for most people. Nor can I imagine anyone wanting to spend a few hours discussing it at a dinner table. OTOH, knowing that 1000 lbs of muscle will kick your butt tomorrow if you can't figure out how to get inside his mind CAN be a very serious topic of discussion.

I have no desire to 'mesh' with some weirdo freaks who want to spend the evening discussing men who marry their mothers. I also suspect I can 'mesh' with a wide variety of people in large part because I DO have interests like shooting, riding, or martial arts.

BTW - at 53, I am taking a college class. PreCalculus. Spent a few hours last night working on logarithmic equations. If one wants to go to college, I suggest classes where BS doesn't cut the mustard. And 35 years after my last math class, I say, "Thank goodness for graphing calculators!" I remember doing it in high school with slide rules...

General Patton - a vastly better rider than I will ever be:

[Paved Paradise]

You really like to assume. Have fun with your logarithms. I bet you could get a lot of people over for a party to talk about them or view some interesting ones.

As for the physical exercise, of course, that is very good. Not sure why you are so negative and down on art and music. Do you grasp the concept of well rounded? It means that you can converse intelligently on a wide variety of topics.

I’m starting to think maybe you fell off your horse one time too many (or took a few too many karate chops to the head). [kidding]

P.S. You’ll find that even math classes are not without their own claptrap. Have even had math professors get on their soapbox with a political rant.

[Eva]

Jonah Goldberg, in Liberal Fascism, included a quote by Woodrow Wilson on education that he stated in address that he made as president of Princeton. Wilson said that their goal as educators was to make the students as least like their fathers as possible.

[Mr Rogers]

“Do you grasp the concept of well rounded? It means that you can converse intelligently on a wide variety of topics.”

So why do you artificially limit those topics to paintings and ancient plays? Why do you think a well-rounded person needs to discuss a Greek play, but not be able to discuss....oh, ballistics, crime, training horses, math, botany, genetics, business, software, engineering, construction, carpentry....get the idea?

There are a hundred (maybe more like a thousand) subjects, and the only ones YOU care about are paintings, music & ancient plays.

BTW - if you want to read ancient Greeks, why not Xenophon’s “On the Art of Horsemanship”:

“Inasmuch as we have had a long experience of cavalry, and consequently claim familiarity with the art of horsemanship, we wish to explain to our younger friends what we believe to be the correct method of dealing with horses. True there is already a treatise on horsemanship by Simon,1 who also dedicated the bronze horse in the Eleusinium at Athens and recorded his own feats in relief on the pedestal. Nevertheless, we shall not erase from our work the conclusions that happen to coincide with his, but shall offer them to our friends with far greater pleasure, in the belief that they are more worthy of acceptance because so expert a horseman held the same opinions as we ourselves: moreover, we shall try to explain all the points that he has omitted.

First we will give directions how best to avoid being cheated in buying a horse....”

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0210%3Atext%3DHorse.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: Wilson said that their goal as educators was to make the students as least like their fathers as possible.

_____________________________

Did Wilson tell us if they will be made more like someone else? If so, who is that someone?

[teeman8r]

perhaps an english grammar class wouldn’t hurt

[Eva]

Jonah Goldberg followed the paragraph on Wilson with a quote by Jane Addams, saying that it was necessary to teach young people that they must abandon the pursuit of achievement. In other words, aim for mediocrity, it’s only fair.

[trailhkr1]

Sorry but this article is a bunch of crap. I graduated 5 years ago and went to a smaller college and finished at a state university.

I was not "indoctrinated" at either school. Never saw much of it going on either. I took 3-4 poly sci classes as BER's and the teachers did not try to brainwash the students and they loved when conservatives would bring up a competing viewpoints against fellow liberal students and did not punish or brow beat them them for being conservative. Heck some of the conservatives in the class had the highest grades.

Do some college campuses tend to be liberal? Sure. But there is not a mass liberal brainwashing campaign going on either.

[Paved Paradise]

I’m not limiting it. You are the one that seems to want to DEFINE it. And you keep bringing up ballistics and horses. You say you are 53? Are you sure you aren’t 11?

[Mr Rogers]

“Are you sure you aren’t 11?”

Is that YOUR idea of conversing intelligently?

Or are you just one of those urbane asses who find guns scary, and horses...stinky?

In any case, I’m confident those are two topics you obviously know nothing about. Feel free to feel superior based on looking at paintings no one cares about. Go on patting yourself on the back for that, while remaining blissfully ignorant of math, engineering, hard sciences...and horses.

[Paved Paradise]

obviously, you feel superior, which is why you are so “insulted” about the 11 year old comment. And FR says we are not to use profanity, so next time, why don’t you skip the “urbane asses” type remarks, since I can assure you that THAT is not mine, or probably most people’s idea of “conversing intelligently.”

As I said, you are a master at assuming. I know quite a bit about science. I also had straight A’s in all of my math classes. I also tutor kids (grades 4-9) with geometry, algebra, etc.

As for horses...well I could make a snotty retort to your urbane “ass” remark, but I’ll refrain. I don’t tolerate profanity from my students and I try to practice what I preach.

[Mr Rogers]

Let us at least be precise about the debate: Does one need to go to college and study liberal arts to be a well-rounded person? Further, does an engineer or scientist need to spend a significant amount of money paying a college to take classes in ‘arts’ to be well rounded?

The answer is not just no, but hell no! And try not to get your panties in a wad because I wrote, “hell”.

You are the one arguing that a person isn’t well rounded unless they take classes in arts and music. I’m the one saying a person can learn LOTS of things besides ‘liberal arts’ to become a well rounded person - for free.

I learned history by reading books. I learned about foreign culture by living in multiple countries. I learned about war, not by reading a greek play about women denying men sex, but by spending time being shot at (poorly, as it happens). I know about Muslims, not by discussing it in class, but by living and working in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan.

Why is it that you consider looking at paintings so critical to being well rounded, yet that well rounded person could be dangerous around a gun because he’s never seen or touched one of those scary pieces of metal? How does reading a suicidal writer make you ‘well rounded’, but training horses does not? Why is an unusual way of spending time by looking at French paintings broadening, but learning about ballistics is not?

Why do YOU think a person needs to pay to study paintings to hold his own in a conversation, but doesn’t need to learn martial arts? Why are martial arts trivial, but liberal arts critical?

I’ve seen the classes taken in science by liberal arts types...they are somewhat less challenging than watching Discovery. They have to be, if the liberal arts majors want to pass.

I’ve got my BS in Biology, but I also earned a teaching certificate. Please do not compare classes in the College of Science or Math with those in the College of Education. I also have an MBA. Please do not compare classes in Business Administration with classes in math or science. I got an MBA because the military said I needed a Master’s degree to be promoted, and I didn’t have much time. I figured an MBA would be easy, and it was...I took the classes and finished in under 6 months, while still working my day job. Those classes were a joke, as were the education classes.

Yes, I despise the intellectual snobbery that would tell my ex-Marine son-in-law that he needs to take classes so he can understand things like war & political & religious conflicts. He did two tours in infantry in Fallujah. He could TEACH a college class about war, if he trusted them enough to open up.

I’m not competent to train my own horses, so I’ve hired help. The trainers I’ve hired are NOT less well-rounded than the average college graduate. They are much more so. Horses don’t grade on the curve. The average college graduate I’ve met - and I’ve met a lot in the military, and am taking classes now - could learn more from trying to ride and train a horse than they ever could by looking at paintings, or reading suicidal writers.

“obviously, you feel superior, which is why you are so “insulted” about the 11 year old comment.”

You think and argue like an education major. Actually, most 53 year old men think they are being insulted when someone says they act like an 11 year old. I’m surprised a well-rounded person like yourself couldn’t figure that out. Maybe you should spend less time in art museums, and more in truck stops.

BTW - most of the college students I’ve met would be better served by spending a year driving a semi than they are by studying liberal arts. If they could cut it, a year on the road would teach them far more than a year in liberal arts, and they could make money while doing it...

[who_would_fardels_bear]

Every college and university makes it very clear what kinds of courses you need to take in order to earn a degree.

There are many competing theories of education, and many different colleges and universities.

If you are accepted at a particular university and you want to graduate with a useful degree then you need to take the required courses.

I went to an engineering college which required at least one non-major course each quarter. Most of my friends went to colleges where they could get their humanities "out of the way" in their freshman year.

If you want to start your own college where engineers and scientists only have to take engineering and science courses then go right ahead. The US still sufficiently resembles a free country to do so.

But you would pretty much be wasting your time. Most of the scientists and engineers I know were OK with their humanities courses. Some appreciated them as a breather from their more difficult workload. Others took non-major courses in computer science, math, or economics that they felt were more practical. Others used them to expand their social circles, i.e. to meet women.

Every system, even those created by the likes of snot-nosed intellectuals like Cardinal John Newman, can be gamed.