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To: MamaTexan
MamaTexan: "I'm still waiting for the listing of said seized properties that isn't from the Lincoln Museum or available only via purchase."

First of all, there are many different Civil War Almanacs available in paperback, at very reasonable prices.
I recommend the one I have, by John Fredriksen, but others are available even cheaper.

Second, there are no complete Civil War Timelines available online, at least that I can find.
However, this site comes as close as any:

1860 election, November 6, 1860 to fall of Fort Sumter, April 14, 1861

Third, I have myself typed up and posted on FR timelines of the more significant pre-civil war actions, but didn't save and now cannot find them.
However, I could do it again, if data in the link above does not satisfy your curiousity.

The key point is this: in every seceding state there were large numbers of Federal properties seized by force, some even before a state officially seceded.
These Federal properties included dozens of forts, armories, arsenals, barracks, customs houses, ships, naval yards, lighthouses and three US mints with millions in coins.
And by definition, forceful seizures of a nation's military assets are acts of rebellion or war.

That all those properties still belonged to the Federal government is proved by

  1. the US Constitution Article 4, Section 3: "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States;"
  2. by common sense (regardless of your alleged "law of nations"), and
  3. by the fact that secessionist representatives in Washington offered to pay for them -- an offer that was refused.

Other secessionist acts of rebellion included arresting and detaining Federal officers, threatening violence against Federal forces and firing on Federal ships -- all this before assaulting Fort Sumter in April 1860.

Indeed, it was secessionists obvious rebellion, not secession itself, which fueled Northern war-fever.
So secessionists assault on and seizure of Fort Sumter was only the most egregious of many events that fired Northern passions to enforce the law and suppress the rebellion.

And, of course, secessionists then sealed their fate by formally declaring war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

174 posted on 04/27/2012 7:12:36 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
1860 election, November 6, 1860 to fall of Fort Sumter, April 14, 1861. However, I could do it again, if data in the link above does not satisfy your curiousity.

As I have never had any curiosity concerning governmental actions after Lincoln's election, your efforts would be wasted.

The election itself was sufficient.

From your link:

Abraham Lincoln wins the 1860 presidential election on a platform that includes the prohibition of slavery in new states and territories

Please show me the Constitutional authority to prohibit slavery in new states and territories.

I've shown in a previous post where the House of Representatives themselves admitted they had no such authority to regulate slavery in the States. If the legislature didn’t possess the authority, neither could the executive.

-----

Also from your link-

November 7, 9 Charleston, South Carolina authorities arrest a Federal officer.

I've looked through the Compilation of the Official Documents of the Union and Confederate Armies , and I can find nothing in them to indicate an arrest of any kind.

****

Nov 5th - Col Gardner [Brevet Colonel, U. S. Army, Ft Moultrie] requests permission to have munitions moved to Ft Moultrie, SC.

Nov 8th - Craig [Col of Ordinance in War Dept, Washington, D.C] acknowledged request and says the issue has not and will not be made without further orders.

Nov 10 - Humphries [Military Storekeeper Ordnance, Commanding, Charleston Arsenal] mentioned ‘the shipment of them was interfered with by the owner of the wharf’.

Nov 13th – Craig [War Dept, Washington, D.C ]
Respectfully referred to the Adjutant-General for the information of the Secretary of War, with the remark that I am not aware by what authority Colonel Gardner undertook to give such an order.

****

If such an arrest WERE made, perhaps it was because the local officials knew the ‘federal officer’ was moving munitions without lawful authority.

I’ve also checked the footnotes on Wiki 216 Hansen, 1961, p. 38 and 217 Long, 1971, pp. 3-4.

A search for Hansen brings up only 2 instances during the proper era, and both concern battles fought in the middle of 1861.

Long gives almost 100, 000 returns, and NONE concern the proper era.

------

That’s all the homework I’ll be doing to verify your facts.

I’ve given verifiable and easily accessible sources, usually in multiple form. Most are from the governmental archives themselves.

History books written 100 years after the war should certainly not be taken as bona fide historical fact, particularly since the ‘victors’ write the history books.

-----

The key point is this: in every seceding state there were large numbers of Federal properties seized by force, some even before a state officially seceded.

The key point is that you have yet to prove your assertion Federal properties were seized by force before a state officially seceded.

175 posted on 04/27/2012 9:38:34 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: BroJoeK
by common sense (regardless of your alleged "law of nations"),

LOL! "Alleged"?

You totally disregard the evidence presented in the words of TWO signers of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and two other men who would later become an Associate Supreme Court Justice of the Pennsylvania District Court [appointed by Washington], and a Supreme Court Justice of the Virginia District Court [appointed by Madison], who was also the same man whose work helped win the recent RKBA Heller vs. the District of Columbia.....

and then try to disregard them all by claiming some insight under the guise of 'common sense'?

Like I said......LOL!

183 posted on 04/28/2012 9:16:57 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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