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To: albionin; Can i say that here?
Kudos to you both for an interesting back and forth. Good to see this sort of thing still occurring on FR.

Might I add that in your search for true altruism, you would arrive at a figure like Jesus, who, in essence, was pure love, stripped of all the things that make human beings fallible. Here's a pretty good example of the kind of love I'm talking about when I think of altruism.

Granted, I've read only Atlas Shrugged, and struggled/forced my way through it because . . . at least in my opinion . . . she was not a particularly good novelist. Or as a novelist, she made a good political philosopher. Her characters in Atlas Shrugged were stilted, exceptionally robotic, frighteningly cold, overly calculating: in essence, not human. And I think this harkens back to the author of this piece's point in that altruism speaks to human love for humanity, and there was no love to speak of in Atlas Shrugged. Yeah, Dagny was really into her railroad, she f*cked all the male protagonists, but did she love anyone?

If she did, I found no evidence of it. I only saw an admiration for things and for the power of people. Now this may be, to some, a type of love, but I'd say it was awe, not love.

Then again, perhaps this speaks to Rand's failings as a novelist in that she could not create a character capable of love.

My best to the both of you.

36 posted on 05/02/2012 8:55:35 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: Hemingway's Ghost

Thank you. I want to reply to you but it will take me some time as I am working all day and I want to think about your post and then respond.


37 posted on 05/02/2012 10:20:53 AM PDT by albionin
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To: Hemingway's Ghost

O.K. I’m ready to reply to your post now. I have been working a lot of hours but that gave me time to think.

I don’t see Jesus’s actions as altruism. The term altruism was coined by Auguste Compte in 1851. He was was a French philosopher, an advocate of totalitarianism and an atheist. The term means to live for others. He saw egoism or self interest as evil and believed humans could be taught to live for others instead. So selflessness or the absence of self interest is a goal of altruism. But Jesus did not act selflessly in dying on the cross. He definitely had an interest, it was his purpose in coming here. Sacrifice is always portrayed as being painful to the one sacrificing and as a loss or trading something of greater value for something of lesser. While he suffered greatly, he did it to gain a much greater value, the fulfillment of his mission on earth and the re-attainment of his place in heaven.

As far as the characters in Atlas Shrugged I can’t agree with you. Yes they were cold and stilted in their relationships with the looters but that is because they were despised by them and under constant criticism. Just imagine if your wife and family treated you the way Hank Reardon’s did. you would be stilted around them too. Also too I think Ayn Rand was trying to show how much of a toll the hatred and vitriol had taken on them. They were always made to feel guilty for their success and called evil for their ability. plus they were living in very serious times. Dagney is trying to save the railroad because she knows what will happen to the country if it fails. They were working so hard to overcome all the obstacles being put in their way they were seriously stressed out. But you’ll notice that when each one retires or decides to quit he changes. Dan Conway says he wants to read books and go fishing, things which he never had time for. Ken Danneger says there’s a thing he’s always wanted to do and never had time”, to take and excursion trip around the island of Manhattan. Then he says “I’ve always been short on time, never what to do with it”. After the first run of the John Galt line Reardon tells Ellis Wyatt that he’s always wondered what he was like and Wyatt answers “I’ve never had a chance to be what I’m like” and that night while celebrating they are anything but cold as they talk about their achievement. And if you’ll notice when she meets them all in Galt’s Gulch they are like different people because Galt has given them the moral sanction they deserved but never got from the looters. So it’s very realistic the way the characters are portrayed and later in the book she makes a very subtle point. in Galt’s Gulch Ellis Wyatt says that what he and all the rest of them are doing is manufacturing time. By making things better and cheaper they are freeing up time from one task so that they have more time to spend on better things. I never noticed this before until I started thinking about your post. She is showing you that the men of he mind are the life givers and the looters are life takers.

As for the characters being incapable of feeling love I’ll give just one example from many, many I could choose from. One of the most moving scenes in the book, for me, is when Reardon tries to save the wet nurse who has been shot and thrown down a slag heap. In the beginning of the book Reardon feels nothing but contempt for him. After all he is there to enforce the onerous government regulations of the looters. But gradually the boy comes to love and respect Reardon and Reardon him as the boy grows and comes to share Reardon’s values. As he is cradling the dying boy he bends down and kisses him on the forehead as he would a son. This is the cold, Ruthless businessman Hank Reardon. Meanwhile his life’s work is being burned to the ground and he knows it. The boy, who he at first despised, now means more to him than his mills. But his actions would not be altruism because he loves the boy. He doesn’t love him for his power or ability because he has neither. He loves him for the moral virtues he has come to embody and for his character.

Sorry to be so long winded but that book and the ideas in it are very important to me. I’d love to hear what you think.

I think Atlas shrugged is one of the greatest pieces of literature ever written in the history of mankind. It’s second only to the Declaration of Independance because the founders were able to say the same thing, except for the part about the creator, in one paragraph that took Ayn Rand over a thousand pages. Lol.


39 posted on 05/04/2012 12:32:29 AM PDT by albionin (A gawn fit's eye gettin.)
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