Posted on 06/04/2012 5:05:16 AM PDT by daniel1212
1) Was the spanking that he advocated actually abuse? From the articles I've read, it seems that it was. The children involved were between 2 months old and 5 years old, and I believe they were bruised by the spanking with wooden dowels. The idea of beating a 2 month old baby with a wooden dowel for the “crime” of crying seems insane to me.
2) Is advocating this behavior a crime or should only those who actually administered the beatings be charged. There are certainly free speech and freedom or religion questions.
I think it comes down to how much influence and/or control did the pastor have over the parents. If some person (pastor or otherwise) set up a blog where he advocated such punishment, to a general audience, I think it would almost certainly be protected as free speech and perhaps as exercise of religion. Plus, it would be difficult to see how such an individual could be held responsible for the actions of strangers following his bad advice.
On the other end of the spectrum, if a husband ordered his wife to beat their infant with a dowel and watched while she did it, I'd say he'd be just as responsible as she was.
This case falls somewhere in between. If he was constantly insisting that parents beat their very, young children, and was exerting a great deal of pressure, using his authority as their pastor, then he might be guilty of conspiracy. If he merely advocated such behavior in a more general way, he should probably not be held criminally responsible.
Posting articles as this does foster discussion, and was not meant to sanction all that the pastor did. You are right about the danger due to the infant aspect, but as said, the ruling was broader than just that, and is not the first time charges have been brought, or laws sought* against principled child discipline of those old enough to know "to refuse the evil, and choose the good." And which uses real abuse to negate a balanced form of child-rearing, in which there can be some physical consequence for choosing wrong,m and rewards and affirmation for doing right, and instead a a different from of child “abuse” is often promoted, that leads to the victim-entitlement mentality.
• French lawmaker wants to outlaw spanking 18 European countries already have laws in place against spanking children
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33948866/ns/world_news-europe/t/french-lawmaker-wants-outlaw-spanking/
• Brazil bill would outlaw parental spankings of children. SAO PAULO -- In Brazil, a swat to your child's bottom could soon get you slapped with a warning.
President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva sent a bill to Congress on Wednesday proposing that Brazil join the two dozen or so countries around the world that have moved to curb spanking.
While a law on the books already makes it illegal to abuse children, the new measure explicitly prohibits parents and guardians from using corporal punishment. http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2010/07/brazil_bill_would_outlaw_paren.html
• Massachusetts Lawmakers Seek to Outlaw Spanking Children
November 28th, 2007 by Halli
A cadre of Massachusetts hypocrites is spearheading an effort to outlaw spanking of children by parents.
Of course, it is already illegal to use corporal punishment in Massachusetts schools, and there are already laws prohibiting child abuse by any adult. But this group wants to step over the threshold of US tradition, as well as the thresholds of millions of private homes, to police parenting styles.
According to Boston’s WCVB, the proposed bill would outlaw whipping, spanking, pinching, administering electric shock, “hot saucing”, washing out a child’s mouth with soap, or any other manner of “the willful infliction of physical pain on children under 18.” Under the new law, children would be able to turn in their parents for any infractions.
• 2006-OCT-19: Greece: Parliament outlaws corporal punishment in the home: The Greek Parliament passed Law 3500/2006 "Combating of Intra-family Violence." Article 4 of the new law states:
"Physical violence against children as a disciplinary measure in the context of their upbringing brings the consequences of Article 1532 of the Civil Code."
hat article has various penalties for the abuse of parental authority. The most serious is the removal of parental authority by the courts. 11
• 2002-MAR-27: Scotland: Government to restrict spanking: The Government of Scotland announced plans to outlaw the spanking of children under the age of three. Their proposed legislation would also outlaw the use of an instrument, such as a shoe or belt, to hit a child of any age.
• 2003-FEB-13 (approx): WY: Wyoming Senate retains corporal punishment: House Bill 68 which would have ended corporal punishment in Wyoming public schools was narrowly defeated in the Senate. It had been approved by the House with a vote of 48 to 10, but was given a tie vote of 15 to 15 in the Senate.
Senator Larry Caller (D-Rock Springs) said there were eight cases of corporal punishment reported in Wyoming schools last year; he suspects that many more were not reported.
Senator Cale Case (R-Lander) said: ''I don't think there is ever a reason to inflict pain on another person, especially a child.''
• 2003-MAR: Iceland: Government bans all violence against children: The government updated its Children's Act. Article 28 states: "It is the parents obligation to protect their child against any physical or mental violence and other degrading or humiliating behaviour." This is interpreted by government and by the Ombudsman for Children as explicitly prohibiting corporal punishment by parents..
• 2005-NOV-18: PA: Corporal punishment in public schools: The Attorney General of Pennsylvania has approved the newly revised Chapter 12 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes. It includes a new section which prohibits corporal punishment in public schools. When the change is published in the Pennsylvania Register, this state will become the 29th state in the U.S. to ban corporal punishment in public schools. http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanknews02.htm
Beautiful!
LOL, Thanks
On that other thread I get pinged a day or so after I thought the thread died with a comment claiming that ‘no one else but this preacher was convicted’ which was a outright lie as my comment link reference above shows. I let it go because they obviously had turned off their 'comprehend' mode.
When I want to get a principled point across I don't pick someone who makes a mockery of my case.
What if a Muslim cleric was counseling the stoning of female member relatives for premarital sex and a number of them were being killed by group stoning by those following his preaching? You think these same folks would be using him as a poster boy for the First Amendment? No, They would be using that as proof that Islam is evil.
I know Phil Caminiti.
There may be more to the story than is in the article. Phil has been exerting a scary amount of power over the people in his church. He wasn’t always this way.
See article and comments. The infant aspect is acknowledged to be valid of censure, but it extended to the use of a wooden spoon at old ages without distinction as being child abuse, and even against teaching it.
See above comments.
Is that the pastor's attorneys FAILED to file a series of immediate motions for new trial...
Concurrently with notice of appeal with emergency stays for the imposed sentence...
...Followed quickly by a very forceful b*tchslap-appeal /motions/suit in federal district court -- on 1st Amendment grounds...
Lacking other proven and adjudicated criminal charges....
This man should never see a day in jail for teaching Biblical truths-- regardless of the opinions of pop culture and psycho-babble academics.
Just my $.02
Pertinent:
When Is Spanking Child Abuse? By LISA BELKIN
A hearing is underway in a Wisconsin courtroom, for Barry Barnett, a 43-year-old pastor. He and the state department of social services both agree that the father of nine and minister at the Lighthouse Family Ministries in Poynette, Wisc., used a wooden paddle to punish his 12-year-old son for lying last spring. But they differ on whether that paddling, which left bruises on the boy, was child abuse.
The son has testified — that his father hit him twice; that they both cried during the paddling; that the two “swats” hurt “a little”; that he loves his father and feels safe at home; and that he understands why he was hit. “You should not lie to you parents,” he said.
The ER where the boy was treated submitted a report to the court — showing that the there were faint bruises on his buttocks but no swelling and that he was in no pain.
The district attorney argued that Mr. Barnett “went beyond reasonable discipline and it’s a pattern...”
...63 percent of parents physically discipline their 1-to 2-year-olds, and 85 percent of adolescents have been physically punished by their parents.
the United Nations has set a target date of 2009 to end corporal punishment by parents, and while 23 countries have already banned hitting kids, - http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/when-is-spanking-child-abuse/
I know real examples of false accusations of child abuse used to destroy a parent over spanking in custody battles, but that doesn't mean I want to make child abuse legal.
From what I can see this preacher was guilty, he even contradicted himself on the stand as to what he told them. Did you know he told his members to never do it (follow his advice) in public where witnesses would see it? He sure acted like he knew he was guilty.
Notice the use of the word “hitting”.
Spanking is not “hitting”, but the secularists and their ideological father understand the power of twisting the meanings of words.
Taking away privileges and putting them in their room is good enough without corporal punishment
LOL
I have found that taking away their video games after they are addicted to them drives them nuts, This only works for older kids not the babies that they were beating here.
twisted freak pastor, beat a baby for crying like that will help. May he burn in hell
What I find amazing is that if I was a liberal who wanted to make a case for the government regulating Christian families this nutbag is the one who I would use for an example.
If I was making a case for religious freedom he is the last person I would pick as an example.
How about Sharia law calling for stoning women who get raped? Maybe we should use that as an example too?
So, in today’s society one can be imprisoned for saying the wrong thing. Welcome to Amerika.
I learned many a lesson with much more than a spanking with a wooden spoon. I wasn’t harmed, didn’t make the talk show circuit to whine about it, and grew up just fine. The reason we’re so messed up today is the lack of a few lesson learning spankings.
sharia “law” is blood lust, nothing more. It is pure evil.
Same with my grandparents. In their day, spanking kids was okay. Corporal punishment was allowed in schools.
Nobody wants to see kids beaten or abused. But appropriate spanking can be an effective form of discipline. Even the threat of spanking can be effective.
Why do schools have so many problems today? Part of it is a lack of discipline. And kids today know that teachers can’t touch them, othewise, it’s lawsuit time. And the worst of those kids use that knowledge to their advantage, to get away with things.
strictly anecdotal that “spanking” worked on you.
You might have been a serial killer otherwise is that your point?
Maybe if you got spanked more you would have been a nuclear physicist? Or found the cure for cancer?
I disagree. In real life punishment is often more than negative denial of freedom, and in Scripture that is especially evident. One thing that is not often noticed amidst the extensive jurisprudence of the O.T. is a prison system.
In addition to many crimes mandating capital punishment* (at the mouth of 2 or 3 eye witnesses, who were to suffer the same penalty their false testimony sought to incur), including refusing the judgment of the “supreme court,” (Dt. 178-13) and a place of refuge for involuntary homicide, those who could not make reparation or repayment were sold into servitude till they could.
All of which, under the premise of a theocracy which was based upon God manifesting Himself to be living in unmistakable ways and degrees, and allowing for further judicial development based upon precepts and principles, while more severe than our rule of law (yet less complex), worked toward less death (no AIDS, drug ODs, etc) and much less adultery, unwed moms, broken homes, murder..) and greater longevity, stability and strong social and family life, with celebrations.
And Israelites who got into debt could sell themselves as contract workers (even to foreigners), and were given generous severance pay after 6 years (if they choose), and the families who sold their land receive it back at the 50 year jubilee. All the while keeping enemies in subjection.
Beats a welfare system.
*http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/TheDeathPenalty.html#False
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.