Posted on 06/09/2012 10:49:03 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
You don’t know my backstory, nor will I repeat it. Be careful judging those (like me) about whom you know nothing.
Just know that many of us who deal with abused children, women and even animals have ultimate compassion and inside knowledge because we have been through the exact same thing ourselves, unspeakable things that no human should have to endure.
You have no idea what I have been through.
All the best to you.
I have not judged you. It’s amazing to me that you could take offense to anything I’ve said in either of the posts I made to you (my caps are meant for emphasis and not shouting, btw - it’s just easier to type without needing to remember every HTML tage - my apologies if you thought differently and perceived it as raising my voice to you).
I asked you a question in the second post because at first you said you work with abused children, and then you say you can only work to prevent the abuse by warning teens as to the signs of abuse. I was trying to give you a different perspective, and thought perhaps I had misunderstood what you said. You’re right, I don’t know what you’ve been through, and what I’ve shared here on this thread is but a tiny bit of what I have gone through as well... I work with abused children 24/7 (my OWN children), and those perpetrators were but children themselves. (I have their permission to state these things “in public”.) No matter how cognizant I was of the reality of our world my OWN children suffered abuse at the hands of their PEERS as VERY young kids - the only difference being they (luckily, amazingly?) came and told me immediately despite the threats of my death the abusers tried to shut them up with. The DA I worked with said our case was one of the WORST he had EVER seen in HIS 30 years as it involved children preying on other children...
My whole LIFE it seems I’ve been around abusers and seen more than I wish for anyone else to ever see. The pictures taken by the police of my nephew haunt me everyday of my life, and though I know I couldn’t do anything when I learned of the truth except spend time loving him while he was in the hospital before I said goodbye to him forever due to the situation involved (he was adopted out of the family which I am grateful for), I will never truly forgive myself for not trying to go and visit more often thinking that perhaps I could have seen something, done something before it got to that point (even though I was so far away with young children of my own).
I don’t really understand why you are directing this defensive attitude towards me, frankly. Maybe take some time later to re-read what I’ve written and perhaps you will see that I AM A SURVIVOR, and I work with children who have been abused as well. I HAVE witnessed the horrors of INFANTS abused to the point of near death, too. (And, I did NOT know it was going on due to not living within 1000 miles of my nephew).
I am NOT judging you, I am TELLING you not to use the words “damaged goods” because it does do more harm than good. You can choose to accept what I’ve said or not - it’s harmful to abused children to say those words, and even to us adult survivors as well.
The best to you as well, and I hope someday you’ll be able to see where I am coming from, and why my responses to your posts were such.
Your words stated things in such a way that pointed to a career in this field, and it was upsetting to me because through my experience as a child I saw people who didn’t do me or my sister a whole lot of good because they had made judgments about us based upon what the *experts* said, and what they were taught. Many treated us as *lost causes* with no hope for learning anything different. Your second post pointed to perhaps a career in assisting in the prevention of abuse as well through work with young women. Both of those are important things. I was truly making an effort to understand more clearly where you were coming from. I’m sorry it didn’t reach you as intended.
I’m guessing now that a career-choice not the case at all - I hear your pain in the few words you have said. And, whatever your wounds may be, I wish you peace, love, hope, and happiness - in a very real sense, not some hippy/liberal BS way.
Just PLEASE remember that children who were abused and grow up hearing that they are damaged goods (even if it’s said in regards to their abuser) WILL transfer that to their own view of themselves. One must be so very careful because these children really are in such a bad place inside.
Again, my best wishes to you, and I won’t post to you again on this thread if you do not wish to respond, as I don’t want to cause you anymore pain than you are obviously in. Again, my apologies if you think I have judged you, as I truly have not... And, sorry THIS post is hard to understand. I’m hitting the point myself where my emotions are too close to the surface, and perhaps when I come back to this thread tomorrow I’ll understand why I provoked the response in you that I did.
NOTE: As I was composing this response I received another post and responded to that previous to this. If I wasn’t so emotionally exhausted at this point I would take the time to rephrase some of this - please do not take the following as being overly harsh or judgemental. I am truly not intending it in that way, and I apologize if what I wrote does strike either of you I have addressed this to in that way. I should probably have taken a break on this subject before this point because it is such a personal thing to me in so many regards.
1010RD: I have not checked out the book you spoke of in your post to me (vs. the one I’m responding to), but I will definitely check it out. Thank you for suggesting it to me. My journey is never over, and there is always more insight to be gained and things for me to learn.
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So, you are saying that there is NO acceptable use of corporal punishment at ALL, except in cases of *severely deranged* individuals who harm THEMSELVES (also deranged is not an apt descriptor, horribly hurting and lost is)? What kind of screwed up ideology is THAT? I can understand people coming from a position of being against ANY form of corporal punishment, but then to say in the case of those who are self-mutilating then it might work? Sorry, that sounds like pure insanity to me. A child who is self-harming does so from a feeling of lack of control over their lives - how is turning them into a victim going to possibly help them learn to handle stress, and take control of things that they SHOULD be able to be in control of? If it is an attempt to awaken some sense of self-preservation, then it shows a total lack of understanding of the reasoning in the person who is self-harming’s thought process. It is not done out of a death wish. It is done from a desire to regain some control over SOMETHING in their lives.
I don’t think there is ANY use for physical punishment once the child can understand what a parent is truly saying (same goes for when a child is too young to be responsible for their behavior at all). And, there is no use for it in regards to anything other than when the physical consequences of extreme misbehavior could result in permanent damage or death of the child.
It is however, I guess, hard for some parents to know where the line is, and when it is appropriate, and when it is not. I have seen horrors all in the name of “Godly discipline” as well, but again, sometimes people take the prohibition of using any form of physical restraint even to the opposite extreme and don’t know how to discipline at all, and the results can be the same. OR, even worse with no tools at their disposal they fall into the trap of losing their tempers, lashing out, then trying to *make it up* to the child who is left with so many mixed messages that the world becomes a place they really can’t understand.
Also, for all of those who believe that you must be stuck to some rigid path of righteousness and NEVER EVER let your children see you stumble, or fall. Well, I’m extremely proud of all of my children, and they know I am far from perfect. They don’t always make the decisions I wish they would make, but I realize they are on their own path, and sometimes restricting them from making ANY mistakes, or suffering the consequences of those mistakes, or being so rigid the child feels as if there is no way you could ever understand what they are going through because being *holier than thou* comes so easily - THAT is where the rebellious attitude comes from as well.
A complete lack of feeling control over ones-self, their decisions, and their lives in general will pretty much GUARANTEE that your child will eventually come to a point where they will doubt EVERYTHING you have tried to instill in them.
I should have been clearer.
Physical punishment only works in the early stages. Once they can 'argue' back, it becomes a mental game and physical punishment doesn't really improve behavior.
What DOES improve behavior is being CONSISTENT in PUNISHMENT for the DEED.
Parents who keep telling a child "NO" and let the child continue repeating the behavior, and then get so mad they resort to physical punishment, are abusing their child in TWO WAYS, and never solve the problem.
you are correct.
I agree. The fact that the industrial revolution and the incredible amount of scientific/intellectual progress in the late 19th/early 20th century occured at a time when you could purchase morphine sulphate by the ounce is a reasonable argument against modern anti-drug hysteria.
In some places it was standard medical practice to purposely get alcoholics hooked on opium as a substitute because the health/psychological/daily functioning consequences are far less severe.
Its ironic that all the really serious negative health and societal consequences of heroin addiction in modern are the direct result of making opium illegal.
Opium paste/laudanum etc. is fairly bulky so it must be concentrated into heroin for smuggling, then adulterated and cut by street dealers for redistribution, which leads straight to IV drug use, needle sharing and the infectious disease horror-show that follows.
I’m not for blanket legalization of everything, but we could do a lot better than we’re doing now by moderating our policies.
When I was raising mine, these were my rules:
1) Only use a rod - a thin flexible twig or similar substitute
2) Only use the rod against rebellion, not disobedience or poor performance
3) Never use the rod in anger, or while angry
4) Never use the rod in public or where others can see - It’s not to embarrass the child
5) Make sure the application of the rod is age appropriate, and only once or twice at a time. Then give the child an adequate opportunity to end his/her rebellion.
6) Remain calm, and make sure your spouse is in agreement with the application of the rod and is also calm.
The neighbor should not have used that profanity in the presence of any child, his children or the other man’s son. That was wrong.
IMO.
Are you Jewish or Christian?
Let me clarify what I mean about the potential for a positive result from corporal punishment in the extreme. Some scientific studies indicate that among a very, very small population of those that self-mutilate a redirection of that behavior, using corporal punishment appears to successfully end the mutilation behavior over time.
So in 99.99% of cases normal children and even those suffering from some form of mental illness never, ever need corporal punishment. Behavior is best reinforced in a positive way. This is true of both adults and children.
Christians do not use violence to teach or influence others.
“scientific” as according to who?
I will concede this: some people wear a rubber band and snap it on their wrist when they want to dissuade themselves from cursing or smoking etc. But they are doing it to break their own habit, no other reason. Does it “work”? I have no clue.
Spanking doesn’t work ever, even when kids are little. What does work is clear rules and consistent consequences coupled with positive reinforcement of good behaviors with redirection as required. I think we agree wholly on the latter part.
My favorite part: WE are not the *damaged* ones, the perpetrators ARE.
God bless you.
Bon, I also was surprised that you took offence to LR's post.
I think BOTH of you are contributing amazing, thoughtful, balanced, and incredibly RIGHT ideas to this thread. I think you're both great! People like you, both of you, are of great value and are, I am sure, considered to be powerful blessings by those who have you in their lives.
God bless both of you, and thanks to God for blessing us with both of you.
Follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you so much for your kinds words, and re-affirming support - in both of your posts to me.
I appreciate it very much, and I am very happy knowing that through sharing my experiences, and my insights that I may be able to make a small difference for; children in the position I was in, teens and adults struggling to overcome these issues, and even for those who work in the fields of psychology, justice, family courts, etc...
I never intend my posts to come across as harsh, or judgmental, but due to the emotions that run so deep sometimes it’s unavoidable, and hard to see through words to someone’s intentions - particularly over the internet. I’m glad that you have posted to me in regards to the reaction I elicited in the other poster, as I often worry that my dialogue will be taken in the wrong way (one of those after-effects of being abused, btw).
Anyway, thanks again.
God Bless you and yours as well, Finny. :)
Then His words and teachings in the New Testament should be your focus. Where does Jesus authorize or encourage hitting children?
It’s not my job to teach you the proper relationship between Jesus and the Word of God.
But you are wrong. New Testament Only Christianity misrepresents who Jesus is, and what the importance of the Jewish scriptures is.
You misunderstand both. The OT doesn’t teach corporal punishment for children. No shepherd beats his sheep. The “rod” is illustrative and figurative of the Word of God, not a physical tool for punishment.
Jesus Christ is the God of the OT and he’s consistent.
I wasn’t referring to corporal punishment. You are whipping a straw dog.
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