All-Time All-Stars (Thomas Sowell)

Creators Syndicate ^ | July 6, 2012 | Thomas Sowell

[jazusamo]

Nothing is likely to get an argument started among sports fans faster than attempts to name the all-time greatest in any sport, or even the all-time greatest in a particular aspect of a sport. However, in baseball, we can at least narrow down the list of possibilities

[Publius Valerius]

Ron Santo? On his numbers alone, he’s not a HOFer. Not even close. He got a sympathy vote.

Santo’s number one comparable on Baseball Refernece is Dale Murphy. His number two is Gary Gaetti. I happen to like both of those players a lot. But they are not HOF material, and certainly not “best to ever play a position” material.

[tx_eggman]

Ruth could've made the baseball Hall of Fame without swinging a bat. He was that good of a pitcher.

He was that much better of a batter to quit being a pitcher. Nobody else even came close.

I remember being amazed as a kid when Whitey Ford set a new record for consecutive scoreless innings pitched in the World Series (from '60 - '62) at 33 innings .... and finding out it was Ruth who held the previous record of 29 2/3 innings.

[BushMeister]

"A lot of factors to consider. Williams played in a very good hitters ballpark. Ruth played in the all-time hitter’s era. Ruth didn’t have to deal with night baseball, sliders, a pool of pitching talent that just happened to have a greater concentration of melanin in their skin. I agree (and thereby amend my ‘not even close’ pronouncement’) that Williams was close."

Ruth played the middle and late portions of his career in high-offense era, but values such as OPS+ and wRC+ are adjusted versus the league average. Ruth leads all-time in OPS+ with a 206 value versus 190 for Williams).

As for the introduction of non-white players, it wouldn't have made much of a difference in Ruth's case. He hit Negro League pitchers even harder than the white MLB pitchers (source: Bill Jenkinson). In addition, check out the stats of Stan Musial and Ted Williams (the only hitters comparable to Ruth whose careers straddled the integration of MLB starting in 1947). They were almost exactly as successful after integration as they were when MLB was all-white, and the integrated portion of their careers included their age-related decline phase.

[ops33]

Great article. Mel Ott was only one of a handful of hitters intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

I guess we could go on like this forever.

[Young Werther]

I was a crossing guard in my elementary school in Bellevile NJ. Nothing wold start a fight in the school yard quicker than Yankee vs Brooklyn Dodger bragging.

The spring of 1956 we went to Yankee Stadium to see a game as a tnank you from the police and fire department.

What a team! Yogi and Mickey hit home runs and the whole team sparkled.

The line up was All Stars and we beat the Bums to win the World Series!

[BushMeister]

People are mentioning Musial, Aaron and Cobb. Don't forget Mays, Hornsby, and Gehrig, as well. All-time greats, obviously, but they can't touch Ruth and Williams. We can argue all day about the differences between eras (integrated baseball, better gloves and baseballs, modern training and medicine, steroids and HGH versus all-white baseball, lousy gloves, exhausting train travel, 3-week+ road trips and homestands, absurdly heavy bats, etc. etc. etc.). But in the end, when you assess what hitters actually did on the field, when it comes to efficiency, Ruth and Williams come out on top. I will add one more aspect in favor of Ruth: he was a devastating World Series hitter. Williams got to play in only one WS, and was dreadful, and the main reason that the Red Sox' "Ruth curse" didn't end in 1946. Sure, Ruth played in 10 WS to Williams' 1, and Ruth had his own lousy WS in 1922, but when a man hits the way Ruth did in the WS (career 1.233 OPS, including some PA as a pitcher) over 167 PA, that's a huge plus.

This is an excellent chart to asses who the all-time best hitters were:

wRC+

[Vigilanteman]

Bill James, who knows baseball a lot better than you, says otherwise. So does the fact that Santo played mostly in a pitcher's era and still managed a higher lifetime batting average than Mike Schmidt. So does his string of consecutive golden gloves, all-star game appearances and offensive category leadership. We don't even have to get into his service to the game after his playing days are over to qualify him as one of the best to every play the game. Certainly not in the top 5, 10 or even 50. But certainly in the middle of the pack of all Hall of Famers.

Comparing his offensive statistics to Dale Murphy or Gary Gaetti is about as meaningful as claiming that the 1930 Philadelphia Phillies was a way better hitting team than the 1906 Chicago Cubs. It is actually true. The Phillies hit .315 as a team, but finished dead last with a 52-102 record. The Cubs finished with a 116-36 record but hit only .262 as a team. As far as I know, that team winning percentage has never been broken. Any only the great New York Yankees teams of 1927 (110-44) and 1998 (114-48) have even come close.

The same quarter century time lapse separated these teams and the prime playing days of Santo and your examples. Your arguments make about as much sense as claiming that the 1906 Chicago Cubs team was NOT one of the best to ever take the field since the last place 1930 Phillies had a better team batting average.

OTOH, comparing his offensive statistics to Brooks Robinson would be fairly relevant since they both played in the same era.

[BufordP]

I guess we could go on like this forever.

What am I? Chop liver?

The All-Century Team

Pitcher
Grover C. Alexander	Bob Gibson	Jim Palmer
Mordecai Brown	Lefty Grove	Eddie Plank
Steve Carlton	Carl Hubbell	Robin Roberts
Roger Clemens	Walter Johnson	Nolan Ryan
Dizzy Dean	Sandy Koufax	Tom Seaver
Dennis Eckersley	Greg Maddux	Warren Spahn
Bob Feller	Juan Marichal	Ed Walsh
Rollie Fingers	Christy Mathewson	Cy Young
Whitey Ford	Satchel Paige

Catcher
Johnny Bench	Mickey Cochrane	Josh Gibson
Yogi Berra	Bill Dickey	Gabby Hartnett
Roy Campanella	Carlton Fisk
First Base
Jimmie Foxx	Buck Leonard	Eddie Murray
Lou Gehrig	Willie McCovey	George Sisler
Hank Greenberg	Mark McGwire	Bill Terry
Harmon Killebrew
Second Base
Rod Carew	Charlie Gehringer	Joe Morgan
Eddie Collins	Rogers Hornsby	Jackie Robinson
Frankie Frisch	Napoleon Lajoie
Shortstop
Luis Aparicio	Joe Cronin	Honus Wagner
Luke Appling	Cal Ripken Jr.	Robin Yount
Ernie Banks	Ozzie Smith
Third Base
George Brett	Paul Molitor	Mike Schmidt
Eddie Matthews	Brooks Robinson	Pie Traynor
Outfield
Hank Aaron	Rickey Henderson	Frank Robinson
Cool Papa Bell	Joe Jackson	Pete Rose
Barry Bonds	Reggie Jackson	Babe Ruth
Lou Brock	Al Kaline	Al Simmons
Oscar Charleston	Willie Keeler	Duke Snider
Roberto Clemente	Ralph Kiner	Tris Speaker
Ty Cobb	Mickey Mantle	Willie Stargell
Joe DiMaggio	Willie Mays	Paul Waner
Goose Goslin	Joe Medwick	Billy Williams
Ken Griffey Jr.	Stan Musial	Ted Williams
Tony Gwynn	Mel Ott	Carl Yastrzemski
Harry Heilmann	Roy Hobbs	The Whammer

27½ posted on 07/06/2012 5:00:56 PM EDT by Roy Hobbs (I coulda been better. I coulda broke every record in the book. )

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---

To: 3D-Joy; 50mm; AGreatPer; Bockscar; calcowgirl; cindyTrueSupporter; concretebob; Disco Dave; ...

ping!

If you want off my ping list get over it!

I guess we could go on like this forever.

What am I? Chop liver?

The All-Century Team

Pitcher
Grover C. Alexander	Bob Gibson	Jim Palmer
Mordecai Brown	Lefty Grove	Eddie Plank
Steve Carlton	Carl Hubbell	Robin Roberts
Roger Clemens	Walter Johnson	Nolan Ryan
Dizzy Dean	Sandy Koufax	Tom Seaver
Dennis Eckersley	Greg Maddux	Warren Spahn
Bob Feller	Juan Marichal	Ed Walsh
Rollie Fingers	Christy Mathewson	Cy Young
Whitey Ford	Satchel Paige

Catcher
Johnny Bench	Mickey Cochrane	Josh Gibson
Yogi Berra	Bill Dickey	Gabby Hartnett
Roy Campanella	Carlton Fisk
First Base
Jimmie Foxx	Buck Leonard	Eddie Murray
Lou Gehrig	Willie McCovey	George Sisler
Hank Greenberg	Mark McGwire	Bill Terry
Harmon Killebrew
Second Base
Rod Carew	Charlie Gehringer	Joe Morgan
Eddie Collins	Rogers Hornsby	Jackie Robinson
Frankie Frisch	Napoleon Lajoie
Shortstop
Luis Aparicio	Joe Cronin	Honus Wagner
Luke Appling	Cal Ripken Jr.	Robin Yount
Ernie Banks	Ozzie Smith
Third Base
George Brett	Paul Molitor	Mike Schmidt
Eddie Matthews	Brooks Robinson	Pie Traynor
Outfield
Hank Aaron	Rickey Henderson	Frank Robinson
Cool Papa Bell	Joe Jackson	Pete Rose
Barry Bonds	Reggie Jackson	Babe Ruth
Lou Brock	Al Kaline	Al Simmons
Oscar Charleston	Willie Keeler	Duke Snider
Roberto Clemente	Ralph Kiner	Tris Speaker
Ty Cobb	Mickey Mantle	Willie Stargell
Joe DiMaggio	Willie Mays	Paul Waner
Goose Goslin	Joe Medwick	Billy Williams
Ken Griffey Jr.	Stan Musial	Ted Williams
Tony Gwynn	Mel Ott	Carl Yastrzemski
Harry Heilmann	Roy Hobbs	The Whammer

ping!

If you want off my ping list get over it!

[no-to-illegals]

Could I have a steak instead?

[imjimbo]

They all ARE in the HOF, and they ALL acknowledge Brooks was the greatest 3rd baseman of all time.

[Bigun]

Anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that never saw Brooks Robinson play!

There have been some really great third sackers but Brooks was the best by a mile!

[Charles Henrickson]

Here's my 25-man roster:

C: Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra
1b: Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
2b: Rogers Horsby, Eddie Collins
SS: Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken
3b: Mike Schmidt, Brooks Robinson
OF: Ted Williams, Stan Musial
OF: Willie Mays, Ty Cobb
OF: Babe Ruth, Henry Aaron
P: Walter Johnson, Bob Gibson
P: Christy Mathewson, Tom Seaver
P: Lefty Grove, Steve Carlton
P: Grover Alexander, Sandy Koufax
P: Warren Spahn

[no-to-illegals]

May I have the second choice?

[Notary Sojac]

Let's try a couple of questions I always ask in the grandstand.

Starting with the team you followed most as a kid...(1) who was the -worst- player ever on that team? (2) who was the opposing player you respected/feared the most?

As a Cubs fan, my choices for (1) are almost limitless, but the inauspiciously named Pete LaCock has to be the winner. A first baseman who hit like a third string shortstop. And (2) after a lot of thought has to be Roberto Clemente.

[Charles Henrickson]

Mike Schmidt is the greatest 3b ever. Brooks Robinson is next. Keep in mind, Schmidt was a great defensive third baseman, great power, good speed. Eddie Mathews, George Brett, and Pie Traynor would rank behind Schmidt and Robinson.

Ron Santo is surely one of the top ten at 3b, the most under-represented position in the Hall. I saw most of the games Santo played--hundreds in person, hundreds more on TV--and he was the best 3b in the NL for over a decade. Santo played in an era with the lowest offensive numbers since the deadball era, so don't compare his stats to Vinny Castilla, for example. Apples and oranges.

[Notary Sojac]

My lineup - only players who I’ve seen. I don’t like to rate guys I’ve just read about in a book.

C Johnny Bench
1B Albert Pujols
2B Joe Morgan
SS Robin Yount
3B Mike Schmidt
LF Rickey Henderson
CF Ken Griffey Jr.
RF Roberto Clemente
LHP Steve Carlton
RHP Bob Gibson
RP Trevor Hoffman

[boop]

LOVE Johnny Bench. I've never seen such a rocket arm. He would show off on occasion by by throwing the warm up pitch to 2nd base from the crouch.

Agree with Joe Morgan. All around fantastic, in an era when middle infielders weren't "expected" to be great at the plate.

I know it rankles some people, but I wish I could have seen some inter-league play when I was a kid. Growing up in a NL town, I only knew of AL players during the playoffs/WS. Otherwise they were faces on a baseball card.

[ops33]

When I was a kid and first started to play Little League I inherited my older brothers baseball glove. It was too small for him. My brother had gotten to glove new and worked and worked on breaking it in. He would rub it with Vaseline and put in under his bed with a ball in the pocket to give the glove form. Beautiful glove, it was a Duke Snyder signature baseball glove for Little League players. Man, I wish I still had that glove today.

[imjimbo]

See post 31. You must’ve not seen Brooks play, because your hero HIMSELF said Brooks is the greatest. End of story.

[this_ol_patriot]

George Brett did have at least 3000 hits, 300 homers and .300 average lifetime, only Musial, Aaron and Mays did that.
Plus he had the original "rhoid" problem, hemorrhoids not steroids. I heard he used pine tar on them.
Not a Schmidt or a Brooks but he was right behind them.