Posted on 01/04/2013 5:43:51 PM PST by Katechon
I’ve explained by playing Grossman’s advocate in order to discuss his thesis — that I find interesting.
That is my point all along. It depends on the individual. Some joined the police or military to make their family proud and uphold tradition, some for college money, some for glory, some to travel, some for the hopes of being in combat to 'see what it is like,' and others for God and Country.
I will not reveal further the context (which many of the posters I pinged previously already knew) in which I was speaking.
What I do know is that the first time I killed someone it was three someones......well, there were five; I shot two, my buddy shot two and we both shot the guy in the middle. I dumped a 30 rd mag (loaded with 28 rds) and he dumped a 100rd belt.
God and Country were not on are minds when we high-fived each other and were shouting obscenities at our now dead opponents. We had "won." Even with several years of hindsight behind me, had I been asked what that "winning" meant, I could not have, and still cannot define what it meant. It was time to kill and we did. We were both alive. No video game, hunting trip, skydiving, fast driving, drinking binge etc could ever match that adrenaline.
But it didn't stop with just those 5.......there were plenty more after, and in that it was routine. I don't want to say the rest were "easier" because the first ones were not hard.....I guess 'less fanfare' would be more applicable. It was time to kill or it was not time to kill. I do not ever remember thinking about God, or Country, or family, or anything other than it is time to kill and I need to keep as many of us alive as possible. Your mind sort of starts to go into hyper drive....less important items [at the time] get pushed out and you hone in on the task at hand the upcoming ones in front of you.
Each person reacts different. Some people may feel remorse or conflicted after killing, some indifferent, and others satisfied and joyful - trust me on that one. It was the Marine Corps Birthday and we started singing the Marine's Hymn while shooting people. Some where joyful at the time and later felt remorse.
I feel remorse is better left for things you have done that were wrong. Someone may say they are going to do this or that, but until it is time to look at your opponent and remove his life from him, you have no idea what you are going to actually do. There is no blanket application or one-size-fits-all approach.
So if it is okay to ban video games for what they may trigger someone to do.....than it would stand to reason it is okay to ban someone for something they've shown they can and will do - hint: it's why we execute or lock up murderers.
But when you start fear mongering and trying to prevent actions before they occur and resort to thought police action you are on dangerous ground. Especially since, I am a loving devoted father to my children, I attend church regularly, and I help little old ladies cross the road [literally]. Nothing can 'make' you do anything. We all have a choice and it is what we do with it that matters - that's the beauty of liberty.
So, rather than ban inanimate objects for what the may cause people to want to do, or ban people for what they have a propensity to do........lets just stick with enforcing the laws we have and prosecuting people for ACTUAL crimes rather than thought crimes.
Another weak argument.
Male lions regularly kill lion cubs when they take over a pride.
/johnny
Those codes must be taught, by example.
Master to student.
Grandfather to grandson.
Where those codes are not taught, terror reigns.
Your logic, once again, fails.
Perhaps if you talk to your grandparent, or an uncle, he can explain it to you.
/johnny
” Some people may feel remorse or conflicted after killing, some indifferent, and others satisfied and joyful - trust me on that one. It was the Marine Corps Birthday and we started singing the Marine’s Hymn while shooting people. Some where joyful at the time and later felt remorse.”
That’s fascinating. Grossman said that all the warriors he met said to him they felt exhilaration after killing. And some of them felt guilt not about having killed, but about having felt that incredible exhilaration.
This is very natural, says Grossman, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Ozno7HMGE
“Those codes must be taught, by example.
Master to student.
Grandfather to grandson.
Where those codes are not taught, terror reigns.
Your logic, once again, fails.”
I don’t see how the importance of teaching makes my ‘logic’ fail, how it makes irrelevant the hypothesis that there are cultural forces aimed to prevent us from murdering another human beings.
“But when you start fear mongering and trying to prevent actions before they occur and resort to thought police action you are on dangerous ground. Especially since, I am a loving devoted father to my children, I attend church regularly, and I help little old ladies cross the road [literally]. Nothing can ‘make’ you do anything. We all have a choice and it is what we do with it that matters - that’s the beauty of liberty.”
Amen.
And I fully on “thought crime” and the obscenity of some of the forms of preventive warfare and policing, as if we could act on the future with prescient knowledge.
But suppose for the sake of argument that Grossman is right, that it is true that our kids are being wired from childhood by hyper-violent and realistic FPS videogames to be heartless killers. Shouldn’t we do something about this?
Because, if those things are not taught, there is no cultural force.
Murder results.
/johnny
I must clarify this statement.
When we were shooting He was not consciously on my mind [of course He was there all the same].
There was a kind of lull in the fighting as we were getting ready to advance and several radio calls went out for cas' evacs because several of our guys were hit. One of my guys was taking this kind of hard.....and I took that opportunity to Witness to him by reading Psalm 23. It was probably the first time I truly Witnessed to someone.
Within a few moments we were again shooting.
No, I will not accept false for true, or blue for yellow.
Your children will be fine if you teach them, and raise them right.
Besides, they won't have time for video games or television until they have their own apartment, if you are a decent parent. There are always things to do.
/johnny
of course. but again, I don’t see how this neglects the reality of those cultural forces.
I understand. So you’re saying: don’t need to ban those FPS games, just take care of your own childs properly.
No. Because you cannot prosecute a thoughtcrime based on potentialities in a free society.
We KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt that people die in alcohol induced swimming accidents. Should we ban alcohol or swimming or restrict access to either because of a lack of personal responsibility?
Remember. We KNOW that people get drunk and drown. Drinking and swimming are personal ‘choices’. One has to actively choose to drink and swim.
Alcohol is shown in ‘some’ to result in violent and reckless behavior.
In a free society, which of the three should be ‘banned’, prohibited or ‘reeducated’?
Answer? None. Because without the ability to choose reckless behavior with potentially dangerous substances, there is no true freedom.
Now id the man drowns, it’s his fault. If a man kills, it is his choice. He can choose to drink. He can choose to shoot. And in a free society he will be held to the consequence of his actions.
But to deny him the ability to choose, right or wrongly, it the picture of totalitarianism.
Laws exist because people choose wrongly. They do NOT stop anyone determined. Nor do they PROGRAM.
Likewise a Vidgame does not start anyone off on a killing spree. Nor train them. It is their free will that results in their action.
So do we go totalitarian and ban free will, the real cause of every human action?
Do you feel the cultural force to abandon unwanted children in trash-heaps outside of Rome? No.
Because that's not taught now.
Let me suggest some reading for you. A philosopher poet that understood life, death, senseless murder, war, and people.
Next post for the sake of clarity.
/johnny
“Gods of the Copybook Headings”
Rudyard Kipling
AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.
We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.
With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.
When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”
On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”
In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”
Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
” Vidgame does not start anyone off on a killing spree. Nor train them.”
Well Grossman is pretty convinced it does train ‘em; it functions as a mass-murder simulator.
Kids are learning to KILL without any safeguard.
They associate killing with pleasure and rewards. They are learning to associate murders with their own pleasure.
Thank you; I’ll read it quietly tomorrow morning. Many thanks.
Then again, please provide us with the documented body count that shows millions dead.
That’s all. Because without it, the experimental proof of his assertion fails. And he has had over 30 years to find that evidence.
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