Posted on 02/27/2013 5:35:31 AM PST by thackney
Do you agree the investment into this fueling system has already started?
I don't know where you live. It could be you live where they will finish building out the system, not where they have already started. To claim they need tax payer subsidy until they reach all locations sounds sketchy to me.
I said: “IMO, nothing in the Act would have enriched Pickens directly but indirectly he would certainly benefit from his financial interests in CLNE, WPRT and various natural gas holdings.”
There was no subsidy or tax credit directed toward any of Pickens’ investments in the Nat Gas Act. You keep looking for a “Plan”. The Plan was to get this legislation passed to quickly reduce our dependence on OPEC oil. The plan failed but Pickens is going forward anyway, very slowly, without any govt help - you have acknowledged this above. Quit trying to falsely demonize Pickens and don’t quote me out of context.
You keep looking for a “Plan”.
Yes. He advertises having a plan, requests people to support the plan, but only states the goals, not the plan. Democrats often do this to get their garbage legislation past people without letting them know the actual actions that will be imposed.
I am not accusing Pickens of being democrat. But I want more than goals, I want the actions taken to be known. That is what a plan actual is, letting people know how we are going to reach the goal. Calling it a plan is his words, not mine. So where is the plan? Why is it so hard to find on a web site dedicated to promoting the plan?
Well, I’ve tried to explain it to you as best I can. Suggest you contact Mr. Pickens directly for details.
Tell me, which oil producers sell there oil at below market prices?
Nevermind...
Of course US produced fuels will be sold at market prices...as it should be.
The significant increase in supply and production capacity (refilling supply) will drive down prices. It will drive it down to the point that oil producers overall receive a competitive profit margin above production cost.
The high cost fuel producers will be driven out of the business, because they can no longer produce oil profitably. Nobody wants to invest their capital in a business that can’t operate with a profit (other than uncle sam).
It makes no difference whether oil/gas produced here is exported or consumed here. with the possible exception that there are additional costs associated with shipping oil for export.
If we produce a significant amount of the world’s energy, it will give all our industries a global competitive advantage in pricing. - because our domestic (without export costs) energy prices will be lower than those that purchase our exported energy.
Domestic energy production has the potential to pull the USA out of this rotten economy.
The White House is the biggest barrier to this transformation.
The Pickens plan - is to build a network of nat gas fueling stations across the USA.
His company is doing exactly that. He hope to make money doing that (evil capitalism?).
The broader plan - to make the US less dependent on foreign oil/energy is the one he wanted the government to embrace/develop. So far the government has said no - they prefer algae, solar, wind?, and foreign oil.
Pickens will succeed in spite of the government, because the market forces supporting natgas as a transportation fuel are very strong.
His company, Clean Energy Fuels, as well as some others are already doing that. It doesn't need tax payer subsidies, they have been building the stations for a couple years now.
On the Pickens plan web site, he lists the following:
The Pickens Plan.
http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan
There are several pillars to the Pickens Plan:
Use America’s abundant natural gas to replace imported oil as a transportation fuel;
Build a 21st century backbone electrical transmission grid;
Develop renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar power; and,
Provide incentives to homeowners and the owners of commercial buildings to upgrade their insulation and increase efficiency.
So far the government has said no - they prefer algae, solar, wind?, and foreign oil.
The Pickens “Plan” appears to be promoting those same renewables. Too many people want to support “the plan” without understanding what his plan is.
Pickens will succeed in spite of the government,
So just why can we not see the presentation he made to the Energy Department on Tuesday? Or his private lunch with Energy Secretary Steven Chu?
His company, Clean Energy Fuels, as well as some others are already doing that. It doesn't need tax payer subsidies, they have been building the stations for a couple years now.
On the Pickens plan web site, he lists the following:
The Pickens Plan.
http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan
There are several pillars to the Pickens Plan:
Use America’s abundant natural gas to replace imported oil as a transportation fuel;
Build a 21st century backbone electrical transmission grid;
Develop renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar power; and,
Provide incentives to homeowners and the owners of commercial buildings to upgrade their insulation and increase efficiency.
So far the government has said no - they prefer algae, solar, wind?, and foreign oil.
The Pickens “Plan” appears to be promoting those same renewables. Too many people want to support “the plan” without understanding what his plan is.
Pickens will succeed in spite of the government,
So just why can we not see the presentation he made to the Energy Department on Tuesday? Or his private lunch with Energy Secretary Steven Chu?
I thought you were complaining that you could not see his plan?
Now you want to know what he said at lunch the day before yesterday?
Is that not asking a bit too much?
He is more transparent and open with what he thinks the right thing is for the USA than *any* branch of government or government agency. I think the right avenue is to ask the DOL, or any other government official what they heard, and the purpose of the meeting.
They are the ones that work for us.
I still am. Those are only goals. A plan needs actions to take, or it never gets executed.
Now you want to know what he said at lunch the day before yesterday?
Is that not asking a bit too much?
He has made multiple proposals in his past versions of "the plan" to use tax payer funds to subsidies select industries. I do not want tax dollars from me or the companies that employ me to be used to fund my competition.
Do you consider that too much to ask? Do you support the same?
He is more transparent and open with what he thinks the right thing is for the USA than *any* branch of government or government agency.
Great!!!! Then you must be able to point me to what he thinks is "the right to do" as opposed to "where we want to be".
“Do you agree the investment into this fueling system has already started?”
It has been started on a very small scale. I’ve done some research and calling to companies on my own. I live right above the Marcellus Shale in PA, so it would make sense that I would see some activity. The word I got from gas distributors, utilities, etc. were that they were looking into it but everyone was waiting for some type of tax sweetener from the Feds, which is what I posted. Personally I am 100% for expanding the use of CNG.
CLNE earnings for 2012 just released. The top line numbers look good but this company just keeps losing money year after year and has never shown a profit.
The production, gathering and transmission lines for the gas is really just getting started. Give it a little time before they add new uses as well.
but everyone was waiting for some type of tax sweetener from the Feds
That is sad. We have become so accustomed to getting government subsidies that they don't consider the economics alone.
Do you believe it is the responsibility of other tax payers to make it profitable?
Quit floggin’ it Thackney. You very well know that the electrification of America was accomplished only by government assistance. The same thing goes for the transportation systems, road, bridges, etc., etc. I look at this issue strictly as an investor. That’s how I make my living. You make your money working in an industry that receives government subsidies. Quit this holier than thou crap. We both do what we can, as little guys, just to get by in this country where we have alarmingly diminishing control.
You want to make money from tax payer subsidies.
I don’t.
You sound like you are making Obama’s argument of “you didn’t build that” at this point.
I think we will have to agree to disagree and move on.
“I think we will have to agree to disagree and move on.”
Agreed.
I do respect your knowledge and opinions regarding energy issues. I’ve learned a lot from you.
Cheers,
Otter
May I respectively offer for your future consideration, without a nasty sounding like Obama crack ( I offer my apologies for stating that ), that increased governmental intervention like subsidies are one of the causes of diminishing individual control.
Thanks for those words.
I do appreciate it and agree with you in my heart about: “... increased governmental intervention like subsidies are one of the causes of diminishing individual control.”
Bear with me here. I’ve been digging into the bowels of the CLNE press release. I do this because I’m interested in this company and am very much in agreement with their business plan and want them to succeed (as I recall, you were the inspiration for me to look into CLNE five or six years ago). Over the years I’ve been long and short the stock and made money both ways. Here’s a little tidbit from the press release I posted earlier:
“The American Taxpayer Relief Act, signed into law on January 2, 2013, reinstated VETC through December 31, 2013 and made it retroactive to January 1, 2012. We expect to recognize ~$20.8 million of VETC revenue in the first quarter of 2013 attributable to 2012 sales of CNG and LNG.”
As near as I can tell, ‘VETC revenue’ has something to do with the Honda hybrid car (maybe you know something about it)??? This is just one little example of the world we live in and the way it has been in the American system of capitalism ever since there was a stock market and lobbying. Until we can elect enough politicians who agree with our position on the evils of governmental intervention and subsidies to do something about it, we have to get by as best we can.
Now, in spite of missing the bottom line by $0.05, the stock will pop tomorrow, buy on the open. Call me crazy but that’s my free stock advice - and it’s worth every penny of it.
VETC - Volumetric Excise Tax Credit for Alternative Fuels
Crap. I missed that this was reinstated.
I believe that means we are paying to subsidize ethanol, biodiesel, Natural Gas and other Alternative Fuels again. I will have to do more research later.
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