Posted on 06/11/2013 3:31:44 PM PDT by Biggirl
VATICAN CITY, June 11 (UPI) -- Pope Francis has confirmed there is a "gay lobby" inside the Vatican, a Catholic website reported. The Curia is the Vatican's bureaucracy.
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
I think the rooting out of the hoomosexual lobby at the vatican rests on eliminating the more modernist interpretation of the Churches teaching and the teaching in scripture from which it is derived. Ie, quit treating people suffering from SSAD like a persecuted minority, with the implication that they deserve some sort of special dispensation for their sins, and start being honest about what the Church and Scripture actually teaches.
I think the rooting out of the hoomosexual lobby at the vatican rests on eliminating the more modernist interpretation of the Churches teaching and the teaching in scripture from which it is derived. Ie, quit treating people suffering from SSAD like a persecuted minority, with the implication that they deserve some sort of special dispensation for their sins, and start being honest about what the Church and Scripture actually teaches.
stoopud post button....
Homosexual relations are absolutely forbidden by the Catholic church. Do Calvinists really not get that the following means sinful? “ “[H]omosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are against the natural law, are closed to the gift of life, and do not proceed from a genuine sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
This is Catholic talk for saying “perverted, unnatural, selfish, exploitative, and forbidden.”
All I can figure is the Calvinist swarm thinks it isn’t sinful to do things which are perverted, unnatural, selfish, exploitative, and forbidden?
Ask the NSA. I’m sure they know exactly who’s involved.
Not this Calvinist(PCA, not PCUSA variety).
So, it is just what the title of the article stated: An infiltration of the Church by the same self-absorbed, developmentally-arrested, lifelong anal stage types who deep down inside can’t bear that society, left to its own common sense, doesn’t stand up and clap their hands in applause at their choice. The even bigger pity is that so many who would love to speak up in opposition of the homosexual agenda have muzzled the expression of their own common sense.
you are wrong.
Catholics see the psychological problem of same sex attraction as an inborn weakness, similar to those who are alcoholic.
Having this is a “temptation” to be overcome: but it is not a “Sin” to be that way. (and you can argue if they are born or developed that way, but most didn’t ask for the lifestyle).
with counseling, for bisexuals, by changing and funneling one’s sexual impulse into marriage, and for the small hard core gays (about one percent of the population) who cannot have sex with women, they are called to be celibate, and encouraged to channeling their sexual energy into work or prayer. (Freud called this “sublimation”).
Acting on the impulse to have MSM or WSW sex is a sin, similar to adultary or promiscuity. And living a “gay lifestyle” (which is something different) is in the same level of living in a state of sin. Alas, often the person is stuck in that lifestyle, and it takes prayer and often psychological counselling and the grace of God to reform their lives.
The real problem is that modern society has encouraged those with this tendency that it is normal and good.
And often the bureaucrats, who see someone “fall” into sin, will cover up for them because they refuse to “cast the first stone”...alas...and modern psychiatry told them to get treatment and all would be okay.
The problem is that if you just get rid of anyone who has been tempted, you will be hurting many who never sinned. (in the past, many gay men chose the priesthood to protect themselves from being tempted. Usually those around them would watch carefully and help them not to fall, in the same way alcoholics were watched and nurtured carefully to keep them from falling)...
alas with Vatican II and the sexual revolution, the shepherds looked the other way when those around them encouraged them to fall.
To rephrase your question, "Is someone who steals a sinner?"
The answer is yes.
Sin takes more than a disposition, it takes desire and desire is difficult to discern.
Today everyone has an excuse why they should be excused from judgment. But it doesn't work like that.
Excellent and true. Being SSA isn’t the same as sinning. The sin is the action which starts with a thought.
The Church's teachings are correct, the problem comes when some try to twist the teachings to fit their agenda. Be their agenda to mainstream homosexuality or misrepresent the Church's teachings.
Their antipathy for the Church impairs their ability to reason on occasion. Kind of sad, most of them are smart, knowledgeable and seem genuinely committed to Christ.
We are all disposed to sin. That is our depravity. To say that someone is “afflicted” with homosexuality is like telling all of us we are “afflicted” with telling “white” lies. We can and will do the worst of sins as Peter tells us.
We cannot cure our depravity-only Christ can. But cure it God will with His help and grace. We are not to excuse sin and we are to call it what it is-our depraved nature. And God wants us to rely upon Him to eradicate as much of this as possible.
It is absolutely astounding to me how many Christians want to admit they have a depraved nature-even when they live with the evidence every day. I suspect it’s because we like to excuse it rather than confront it.
>> To rephrase your question, “Is someone who steals a sinner?” The answer is yes. <<
Precisely: it is the stealing that is a sin, not the temptation to sin. If someone has a unique temptation towards homosexuality, that alone does not make them sinners. They are sinners if they act on that temptation. Nonetheless, if you’re an alcoholic, you shouldn’t hang out in bars; if you’re a homosexual, you shouldn’t hang out in seminaries.
>> We are not to excuse sin and we are to call it what it is-our depraved nature. <<
No Catholic is arguing that gay sex should be excused. But can’t you understand that a homosexual inclination is a temptation, whereas homosexual sex is an action? If someone doesn’t act on a temptation, it is not a sin.
One does not have to act upon their lusts to sin:
There is something in my post that is a bit unclear. While sin exists in all of us, there are degrees of sin. All sin is sin to God and we are all condemn by it unless we turn to Christ and repent. This is what I would, for now, state as general sin. But there are degrees of sin by which our sinning begets other sin which begets other sin.
According to the catechism posted earlier, homosexuality is treated like everything else that one can master and arrest. When I linked it to lying I was thinking in terms of general sin. However, homosexuality as explained in the bible is a sin of severe degree. It isn't something that people are tempted to do like lying. It is something God has given them over to unless His grace so shines on them. People don't arrest homosexual urges. It is depravity at one of it's highest form.
Harley, do you have any idea what an “intent” is? A temptation is not an intent. If you decide, “Man, I want to sleep with that woman,” but you do not because she wouldn’t sleep with you, that is a lustful intent. On the other hand, if a very sexy young woman wearing next to nothing has just broken up with her boyfriend and is pleading, “I just don’t want to be alone tonight, please hold me,” and you stammer and sweat as you explain why it wouldn’t be right, that is temptation, not lustful intent.
Yet, this exchange is informative to me. I have often wondered why certain Protestants get so worked up over homosexuality, compared to, say, abortion. I go on pro-life marches in majority-Protestant DC region, and see 80% Catholics and wonder, ‘Where are all the Protestants?’ I hear preachers on the radio go on and on about gays, and wonder, “seriously, how many of their parishioners are even tempted by this sin?” I hear all the talk about the homosexual agenda, and think, “No, it’s agenda to separate sex from life; the gays are just the shock troops on the front line, because sex is inherently separate from life for them.”
To you, though, it’s actually not about the sinfulness of the action, though... it’s a sign of fantastic depravity, am I right?
All sin is depravity. That includes whatever we think and whatever we do. The 10th commandment, “You shall not covet”, speaks directly to the heart’s attitude-not to our actions. If we could keep all the other commandments, not to murder, lie, steal, etc, we still would break the last commandment. That is our desire and choice to rebel against God’s will. As the rich young ruler found out, we harbor these sinful behavior.
In your example of the young woman plead, as you’ve described it, I would agree-it is not lust but temptation. But let’s suppose the young woman pleaded with this man, and he dwelled on the possibility and fantasied about it. But in the end he still said “No”. Would you say that he committed sin simply because he didn’t have sex with this woman? Or would you say that he did commit sin in his heart?
One could reverse your question and ask why you get worked up over abortion and not homosexuality? Sin is sin and people simply don’t want to call it for what it is. That includes abortion, homosexuality or many others.
I will say from day one of my salvation I’ve recognized my depravity. This isn’t false humility or some piety. It’s simply an honest appraisal of myself that God Himself revealed to me as He does with every Christian. And every day I live with this knowledge. I understand exactly what goes on in my head and wonder why on earth would I think something like that. I do things that I wonder why would I do that as a Christian. I feel that I’m a poor testimony to God’s love and mercy, yet I’m saved by His grace. I wish others could see Christ in me but I’m far from that. I wish other non-believers could truly understand the love of God through me and come to that saving grace in Christ. The fault isn’t God but me. Yet God is rich in His mercy in understanding and works through my failures.
What shocks me is that other Christians seem not to 1) recognize their depravity, or 2) simply want to deny it exists. Non-believers call us hypocrites not understanding that we are simply the same sinful creature as they are yet saved by God’s grace. We don’t help the charge when we deny our failures and only talk about God’s love in our lives.
In truth, we are an evil lot of people and God can only deal with our sin when we recognize ourselves for what we are. That is why we are to repent of our sin and ask for His help through Christ Jesus. We are not to ignore it or brush over it. It is then we see the light of God.
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