A3SM: A True Game Changer for Submarine Self Defence against Threats from the Sky

As part of the Paris Air Show Navy Recognition was invited by DCNS to visit their factory located near Angoulême in southwestern France. The 260 year old site used to manufacture guns for the "French Royal Navy". It now specializes in the production of submarine equipment such as torpedo tubes and torpedo handling systems. It is also the place where the FREMM frigates' vertical launch systems are produced. The focus of the visit however was the A3SM, a new anti-air defence weapon system for submarine currently under development by DCNS and MBDA.

A3SM stands for Arme Anti-Aérienne pour Sous Marins (literally Anti-Air Weapon for Submarines). The project was first unveiled during Euronaval 2012 and it actually consists in two versions: a Mast version and an Underwater Vehicle version.

Today, submarines have no way to defend themselves against air threats. Submarine forces worldwide have an increasing need to operate close to shores in shallow waters. (As an example during the campaign in Libya, submarines were conducting intelligence missions close to shores). In such situation submarines are an easy target for helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft (MPA). When detected in shallow waters, there is no possibility for the submarine to escape, contrary to deep sea where they can employ various tactics and disappear. Up until now, submarines were harmless against air threats, while significantly cheaper and less complex naval platform like small Fast Attack Craft (FAC) may be fitted with a SAM solution.

It is this gap that DCNS and MBDA are looking to fill. The doctrine of use is not for the

2. The new sensor that was mounted on the missile that made it seek out the airliner and not the target drone.

3. Why the test was performed in Long Island Sound.

Odd, as I have never heard mention of any "target drone" being in the TW800 neighborhood. Was it invisible to the thousands of eyewitnesses?

Doubly odd, since the event in question occurred over the Atlantic, south of Long Island, not over Long Island Sound -- north of Long Island. And Long Island Sound, incidentally, was the location Michael Rivero kept insisting upon.

What I do not know is who the idiot was who decided to test a missile in crowded civilian airspace.

Nor can I imagine any "Black World folks" stupid enough to conduct such a test in "crowded civilian airspace".

Why "off Long Island" when "off Cape Hatteras" or "off Vieques Island" or "off Kodiak Island" would work just as well?

Color me skeptical...

I would prefer the IDAS missile operational on German Type 212 submarines in 2014. This missile got several advantages over the MBDA missile concept for submarines.

4 missiles fit in the space of one torpedo instead of one missile with a torpedo as a capsule. The IDAS missile doesn’t need a capsule for a submerged launch. The best thing is guidance through a fiber wire. So the crew on a submerged submarine can even see the target, redirect the missile or even abort the attack in case the target is friendly.

The concept of the smaller MICA missile was rejected by German Navy. Emerging the submarine to attack was seen as a stupid idea.
http://www.diehl.com/en/diehl-defence/products/guided-missiles/idas.html
http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin/diehl-defence/user_upload/flyer/IDAS_07_2008.pdf
http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/missile-system-idas.html

French CGI can’t match German live firings in 2008;-)

I asked how the submarine would know the airplane or helicopter was around and where it was.

A submerged submarine can't detect a flying aircraft except you have systems like this:
http://maschinenbau.gabler-luebeck.de/en/entwicklungen/kommunikationssysteme/
http://maschinenbau.gabler-luebeck.de/en/entwicklungen/eigenschutz/index.html (VOLANS)

Maybe some captains can aim at the track of sonobuoys laid out by an ASW aircraft. The sonobuoys had to go active immediately. It's also possible to just see an aircraft via periscope but then the submarine is at snorkeling depth. A deep flying ASW aircraft might be a good target. This could be the answer why P-8 Poseidon is not flying as low as a P-3 Orion.

A nice option is to attack coastal installations. Submarine gets target coordinates and attacks without any armed UAV flying around.

That's quite easy. An helicopter is a thread to a submarine when a dipping sonar is used. That sound can easily detected an located by a submarine. The ASW helicopter is located just a few meters above the sonar. A submarine may hear a dipping sonar in active mode but what about inactive? Sonar operators, whether surface or subsurface or aviation, don't go active unless they have to. The reason for that should be obvious; if you put noise in the water your enemy can hear it as well. But I'll play along. So the sub hears an active sonar on a certain bearing. It has no way of telling just how far that sonar is. But it shoots off its missile anyway. Now it has given its exact position away to helicopters who are trying to find it. The missile goes into the air. How does it know where the helicopter is? How is it going to lock on to its target? Radar? If the sub sticks a mast up to use radar then it tells the world where it is. Heat seeking? You still have to point the missile in the direction of your target so it has a chance of locking on to the heat source. So your sub is shooting off missiles and hoping it hits something, and providing its exact location to whoever is looking for it. Madness.

A submerged submarine can't detect a flying aircraft except you have systems like this: http://maschinenbau.gabler-luebeck.de/en/entwicklungen/kommunikationssysteme/ http://maschinenbau.gabler-luebeck.de/en/entwicklungen/eigenschutz/index.html (VOLANS)

Again you have to stick a mast out of the water and radiate something. You are providing your exact location to your opponent and giving up greatest weapon; stealth.

Most sonobuoys are passive. They don't give off any noise. And even the active ones are dropped from altitude. Wouldn't the sub need to know altitude and speed in order to calculate where the airplane might be? Assuming it continues flying straight and level?

A nice option is to attack coastal installations. Submarine gets target coordinates and attacks without any armed UAV flying around.

How does a submarine bases SAM solve that?

A submarine may hear a dipping sonar in active mode but what about inactive? Sonar operators, whether surface or subsurface or aviation, don't go active unless they have to.

You won't find a modern diesel submarine with a passive sonar until you hit the fin of a submarine. Passive sonar may work with louder nuclear powered submarines.

But I'll play along. So the sub hears an active sonar on a certain bearing. It has no way of telling just how far that sonar is.

Modern submarines are equipped with towed array sonar systems. In case the source is not in a direct line between submarine and TASS distance can be calculated. Sometimes flank array is sufficient. In case of a strong signal right in front and above of the submarine the source has to be close. Then it's not a big difference between 500 yards or 5,000 yards distance to attack an slow flying ASW helicopter.

But it shoots off its missile anyway. Now it has given its exact position away to helicopters who are trying to find it.

The solution is to keep cool until you are sure the helicopter will find you anyhow. The point there the missile breaks through the surface isn't the location of the submarine. Another helicopter may face the same fate.

The missile goes into the air. How does it know where the helicopter is? How is it going to lock on to its target?

IDAS is a submarine launched version of IRIS-T missile. IRIS is the abbreviation for Infra Red Imaging System. The missile sends a infrared TV image back to the submarine. The missile can act autonomously or could be guided by an operator. Most common infrared countermeasures will fail.

Radar? If the sub sticks a mast up to use radar then it tells the world where it is.

The trick is the buoy with passive radar detection of the active helicopter radar. The buoy is another point useful for triangulation.

Heat seeking? You still have to point the missile in the direction of your target so it has a chance of locking on to the heat source.

The missile will emerge not so fast out of the water. Just lock how quick the seeker head is (video): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T#Technik The missile knows the bearing and locks in that direction - This feature is called lock-on after launch.

So your sub is shooting off missiles and hoping it hits something, and providing its exact location to whoever is looking for it. Madness.

I guess a submarine will fire the missile just in case it is close to be located.

Again you have to stick a mast out of the water and radiate something. You are providing your exact location to your opponent and giving up greatest weapon; stealth.

It's not a mast with a submarine underneath. It's just a small buoy swimming somewhere and the UAV is already launched in advance. It wouldn't make sense to emerge for launching the UAV just like it won't make sense to emerge to fire the MISTRAL missile.

You are right here. There are to many unknowns to find a sufficient solution to shoot down an aircraft. An low flying aircraft searching with MAD could be attacked by submarine tracking the aircraft by periscope. Won't make sense for Type 212 submarine to attack an aircraft except it is protecting a nuclear powered submarine.

How does a submarine bases SAM solve that?

The warhead of IDAS carries more explosives than a AGM-114 Hellfire. Except for highly armored targets like tanks or APCs enough to take out coastal targets like radar or some bad guys. IDAS is not just a SAM with an infrared seeker. It's also a TV guided bomb.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.