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Questions Remain in Shooting of Miriam Carey (Should Carey Have Been Shot?)
New York Magazine ^ | 10/5

Posted on 10/06/2013 11:46:55 AM PDT by nickcarraway

It's been two days since 34-year-old dental hygienist Miriam Carey was killed after she rammed her car into a barricade in front of the White House and led security forces on a chase toward the U.S. Capitol, and some are asking whether the use of deadly force against her was truly necessary. While the first accounts of Carey's death said she exited her black Infiniti before she was shot, investigators now say she was still in the vehicle when officers fired the fatal bullets. Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Terrance W. Gainer told reporters that Carey "was trying to make a U-turn [toward the officers] between a United States Capitol Police security booth and some planters in the middle of the street on Constitution Avenue. Capitol Police officers and uniformed Secret Service officers shot at the car with semiautomatic pistols." D.C. Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier indicated that the car was not moving at that time and confirmed that officers shot at Carey beforehand, near Garfield Circle, when the car was still moving.

As has been noted, D.C. police have a policy against shooting at moving vehicles "unless deadly force is being used against the officer or another person...For purposes of this order, a moving vehicle is not considered deadly force." But when speaking to the Washington Post, Gainer acknowledged that the location of the incident complicated the situation: "The thing that’s distinctive about this is it was not your typical traffic violation...We operate in an environment under the constant threat of attack from suicide bombers and improvised explosive devices." He added, "Whenever there are bullets flying, there are risks. I think these officers minimized the risks to others." (Carey was unarmed, so — appropriately discharged or not — the only bullets flying were those of the security officers.) The New York Times points out that it is "not clear" whether the Secret Service or the Capitol Police share the D.C. Police Department's policy against shooting at moving cars. Spokespeople for both the Secret Service and Capitol Police declined to provide the Post with more information regarding their organizations' protocols.

Scores of experts have weighed in on the matter, though they mostly (and understandably, given that many details are still unavailable) seem unable to say whether it was handled correctly. Geoffrey Alpert, a criminologist at the University of South Carolina who spoke to the Times, said, "[Carey] had to be stopped. The question is, were there better ways to stop her? I don’t know what the answers are." William J. Bratton, who has led the Boston, L.A., and New York City police departments, also pointed out that D.C. offers "a different set of challenges than most police agencies. It’s truly an exceptional city with exceptional security circumstances." (He also said it was hard to judge the situation because we don't know if Carey "disobeyed commands" form officers.) Chuck Wexler of the Police Executive Research Forum told the Post this was "clearly an out-of-control situation" and said that "it's very important to think, what did the officers know at that point in time versus what we know today," which he said was a reference Carey's widely reported history of postpartum depression and possible psychosis and the fact that her 1-year-old daughter was also in the car.

In an interview with ABC News, Carey's sisters said she was not violent and attributed her struggle with mental illness. They also said the police should have acted differently. Valarie Carey, a retired NYPD sergeant, said, "Officers had enough time to assess the occupants of the vehicle. They actually not only put someone at harm's way, but they took someone's life." "She had no political agenda. She didn't hate her country. She wasn't a terrorist. She was on medication," said another sister, Amy Carey Jones, a registered nurse. "Mental illness really should have more attention."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia
KEYWORDS: copbashingonfr; districtofcolumbia; goodriddance; miriamcarey; randsconcerntrolls
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To: Uncle Chip

Yes, it is.


51 posted on 10/06/2013 1:36:42 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: ontap

Suppose she was wired...or the car was loaded with explosives...You use your instincts and training. I don’t always agree with them...but this time...I do.


52 posted on 10/06/2013 1:38:18 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

If the car was going to be detonated why spend all the time on a chase?


53 posted on 10/06/2013 1:45:44 PM PDT by ontap (***)
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To: tennmountainman

You said it. I almost threw up when they all applauded and then that puking RINO Eric Cantor had to suck up with his little kneebend to the Capitol police.

Not one person that I have heard has denounced this basic execution of an unarmed citizen. Where are Al, Jesse and the NAACP? Crickets so far. They are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them.


54 posted on 10/06/2013 1:46:56 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: abigkahuna

The exercise was still in progress. The actors were given scenarios and being hyped up with all the “terrorism” were ready for anything to happen.

Many times these “exercises” tend to go live and oops a non actor gets caught in the middle.

I recall one “exercise” on the range were an unauthorized drove his M/C onto the range where 25 guys popped up out of the weeds and let loose with M-16’s full auto (blanks).

I am sure he needed a clothing change after that fun.

But you can see how a “training” exercise can have bad endings.

Murdering a confused woman in a city where she was probably lost and having armed men pointing guns at you screaming orders would tend to cause the flight reflex in a woman with her baby in the car.

Just saying.

Applauding the “hero’s” who just killed a human well that’s just sick and sadistic!


55 posted on 10/06/2013 1:51:04 PM PDT by Southern by Grace (kickbacks, bribes, maifia payoffs is how the D's get R' done!)
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To: tennmountainman
We keep hearing different accounts about what really happened. That fact bothers me more then anything. If the cops are so sure they acted properly they should release the video of the shooting to the public. I have a hard time trusting what this government says. Just look at Benghazi, fast and furious and what they are doing to Veterans today. We need the video so we can see what really happened.
56 posted on 10/06/2013 2:00:22 PM PDT by peeps36 (I'm Not A Racist, I Hate Douchebags f All Colors)
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To: Southern by Grace

It just seems something is fishy here. She was unarmed. The car was stopped. The cops emptied clips. She’s dead. No information or video released. There must be 100’s of “security” cams in the effected area.


57 posted on 10/06/2013 2:05:03 PM PDT by hal ogen (First Amendment or Reeducation Camp?)
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To: nickcarraway

I’ve heard there was no damage to the front of her car... indicating it hadn’t rammed anything

have you heard the same? any information on this?


58 posted on 10/06/2013 2:25:44 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Sacajaweau

If that car was wired to blow, don’t you think it would have blown over at the WH where this started?

Isn’t it curious how we haven’t seen either the WH videotape nor any video of how this ended?


59 posted on 10/06/2013 2:39:14 PM PDT by thoughtomator 2.0
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To: sten
I’ve heard there was no damage to the front of her car... indicating it hadn’t rammed anything


60 posted on 10/06/2013 2:45:49 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: bandleader

Because they can... An example had to be made...


61 posted on 10/06/2013 2:46:03 PM PDT by baddog 219
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To: nickcarraway

One question is why doesn’t Dianne Feinstein want to re-start the “reasonable debate” on gun control? She seems to be a big fan of the government shooters killing their citizens.


62 posted on 10/06/2013 2:46:53 PM PDT by DPMD
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To: nickcarraway; All

I urge folks to read the comments at the article. Even though NY Magazine is a pretty liberal NY Publication (although not as bad as some) with a readership to match many of the comments sound just like Freepers.

I’m not sure what to think of this story, but I do question why they weren’t able to stop the car sooner than they did.


63 posted on 10/06/2013 2:51:48 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: cynwoody

sure doesn’t look like anything was rammed

or am I missing something?


64 posted on 10/06/2013 2:52:01 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Sacajaweau
The real tragedy is that there were so many people that knew she had a problem...but everyone is helpless BEFORE an event.

That needs to be repeated. I knew very well a very disturbed young man that turned to alcohol and drugs to self medicate for mental illness. He became violent one day- throwing things out of the house and setting them on fire. His sister is a nurse in a hospital and got him admitted so he could get help. As soon as his mind cleared a bit he simply checked himself out before he could even be evaluated. He killed himself less than 6 months later and thank the Lord he took no one else with him. His family tried everything and even law enforcement was involved, but it is nearly impossible to get help for mental illness in this country. We are far more concerned with Civil Rights of the mentally ill than the safety of the people they encounter. We are even more concerned with their rights than we are their safety. We see that in spades with the firearms issues, we have a definite mental illness issue in this country that we are choosing to ignore.

65 posted on 10/06/2013 2:52:53 PM PDT by Tammy8 ( ~Secure the border and deport all illegals- do it now! ~ Support our Troops!~)
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To: GunsareOK

I think that the rules of engagement (anywhere) are that if someone uses a car as a weapon, the gloves are off. You stop the car, immediately, because OTHERS are now in danger. This involves disabling the car (iffy) or shooting the driver (definitely).


66 posted on 10/06/2013 2:56:31 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: sten
or am I missing something?


Yeah. Check what looks like bullet holes in the driver's door!


67 posted on 10/06/2013 2:59:29 PM PDT by B-Cause (The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money - Thatcher)
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To: thoughtomator 2.0
Isn't it curious how we haven't seen either the WH videotape nor any video of how this ended?

Just wait. Homeland security had the presentation in the pipeline but the CIA section that produced the TWA 800 explanatory video mistaken went on furlough. Any day now...

68 posted on 10/06/2013 3:00:09 PM PDT by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
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To: nickcarraway

Hearing about the DC case felt a bit unsettling to me as just a couple of days before that situation, there was a similar situation in New Hampshire with a car chase and the driver was also shot dead when she tried to ram a police car with her car.


69 posted on 10/06/2013 3:02:28 PM PDT by This I Wonder32460
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To: 1217Chic

Where’s the Trayvon outrage? Ooooh, can’t have any criticism of our first black _resident’s finest, now can we? That might tarnish “our lord and savior’s” image. The only one to open their mouth was Sheila and she has kept mum after that first day.


70 posted on 10/06/2013 3:05:09 PM PDT by bgill (This reply was mined before it was posted.)
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To: sten
sure doesn’t look like anything was rammed

No. Supposedly, the incident started when she rammed a barrier near the White House. How hard would you have to ram a barrier with that car in order for it sustain visible damage?

Maybe Infinity should make it into a commercial. In the spirit of that delightfully tasteless VW Polo ad of a few years ago.

71 posted on 10/06/2013 3:10:39 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: nickcarraway

One more car and you could have blocked her in. Then you shoot the tires, not her. Then you take her in.

Instead, they chose to shoot an unarmed black woman. I guess there aren’t enough black orphans to suit these people. Very caring!


72 posted on 10/06/2013 3:11:42 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: I want the USA back
Her daughter is now without a mother.

Liberals cheer.

73 posted on 10/06/2013 3:13:37 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: nickcarraway

Justice for Miriam!


74 posted on 10/06/2013 3:16:39 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
SWAT teams more and more assume the worst today

Why is that? What has happened to have them change so in the past 5 years? You know this wouldn't have happened 5 years ago. hussein is getting his civilian army and this proves without a doubt it will turn on The People without a second thought.

75 posted on 10/06/2013 3:18:23 PM PDT by bgill (This reply was mined before it was posted.)
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To: sten
It was earlier reported that she rammed this police car.

However, it turns out the officer lost it while speeding to the scene and hit a barrier in the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao3617loZ0k

76 posted on 10/06/2013 3:18:59 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: nickcarraway
I think it is time some FReepers came out of the closet, and just admitted that they want to get rid of the police altogether and go straight to martial law.

Threat = Kill = MILITARY.

Threat = Massive Option List = POLICE

Otherwise, what use ANY training at all? You "kill first, ask questions later" people are still endangering cops. After all, if any threat requires killing, then why put cops out there at all where they could be hurt? Why not go straight to military drones, and missile strikes or snipers against anyone deemed a threat? THAT is perfect police safety.

Not this half-assed endangerment where multiple police officers have to first put themselves in harm's way to determine that an unarmed woman with a baby is a threat before they can murder her.

All I'm saying is say what you mean. The sooner we go to complete military takeover and drones firing missiles at "threats," from offsite computer terminals, the sooner cops will stop being endangered in the line of duty.

77 posted on 10/06/2013 3:22:55 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: rabidralph
An eyewitness says the baby was removed from the car before the woman was shot dead.

That witness comes across as very credible.

78 posted on 10/06/2013 3:25:20 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: thoughtomator 2.0

Nothing is as it seems....more to this than meets the eye....what about the babydaddy who supposedly works in the WH????


79 posted on 10/06/2013 3:37:53 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: Sacajaweau
Suppose she was wired...or the car was loaded with explosives...You use your instincts and training.

Then your instincts and training would be yelling at you that bullets will cause it and you to be blown to smithereens.

80 posted on 10/06/2013 3:45:15 PM PDT by bgill (This reply was mined before it was posted.)
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To: cynwoody

Wow! I had not seen that. Almost looks like in his effort to avoid the cop on the bicycle, he cut it too close with the barrier.


81 posted on 10/06/2013 3:50:48 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: nickcarraway

If, as the Obamas and Sharptons claim, Trayvon should not have been shot, then for sure this woman should not have been shot.


82 posted on 10/06/2013 4:48:55 PM PDT by expat2
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To: GunsareOK

Shoot the tires out, use spike strips, use a “pin maneuver” with your cop car. Push her up to a barricade, make sure she can’t drive away.

Cops are too trigger happy.

Good thing she didn’t have a dog in the car, they would’ve shot that too.


83 posted on 10/06/2013 5:24:18 PM PDT by esoxmagnum (The rats have been trained to pull the D voting lever to get their little food pellet)
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To: yoe

So...logically your position is that the police can shoot anyone driving a car?


84 posted on 10/06/2013 7:01:19 PM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: nickcarraway

She was a threat.........and her intentions were unknown. Had she not been killed and exploded a trunk full of C4, this work have been a much more tragic story. He was acting crazy in probably the most sought after target area in the world. The police had no choice.........


85 posted on 10/06/2013 9:05:52 PM PDT by ALASKA (Disgusted......)
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To: Talisker
I think it is time some FReepers came out of the closet, and just admitted that they want to get rid of the police altogether and go straight to martial law. Threat = Kill = MILITARY.

Threat = Massive Option List = POLICE

Otherwise, what use ANY training at all? You "kill first, ask questions later" people are still endangering cops. After all, if any threat requires killing, then why put cops out there at all where they could be hurt? Why not go straight to military drones, and missile strikes or snipers against anyone deemed a threat? THAT is perfect police safety.

Not this half-assed endangerment where multiple police officers have to first put themselves in harm's way to determine that an unarmed woman with a baby is a threat before they can murder her. I think it is time some FReepers came out of the closet, and just admitted that they want to get rid of the police altogether and go straight to martial law. Threat = Kill = MILITARY.

Threat = Massive Option List = POLICE

Otherwise, what use ANY training at all? You "kill first, ask questions later" people are still endangering cops. After all, if any threat requires killing, then why put cops out there at all where they could be hurt? Why not go straight to military drones, and missile strikes or snipers against anyone deemed a threat? THAT is perfect police safety.

Not this half-assed endangerment where multiple police officers have to first put themselves in harm's way to determine that an unarmed woman with a baby is a threat before they can murder her.

All I'm saying is say what you mean. The sooner we go to complete military takeover and drones firing missiles at "threats," from offsite computer terminals, the sooner cops will stop being endangered in the line of duty.

All I'm saying is say what you mean. The sooner we go to complete military takeover and drones firing missiles at "threats," from offsite computer terminals, the sooner cops will stop being endangered in the line of duty.

Hear, hear.

The more militarized cops are, the more incidents like this we seem to have. And some people--even here on FR-- cheer on the State's iron fisted response, never realizing that THEY could be the next victim of the military-police complex.

We had more restrictive rules of engagement in Afghanistan than these donut munchers had in DC against this poor woman.

86 posted on 10/06/2013 11:36:47 PM PDT by backwoods-engineer (Blog: www.BackwoodsEngineer.com)
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To: hoosiermama

Regarding Kennedy you may get the REAL answer from LBJ’s mistress, with whom he fathered a son. Interesting but revealing “pillow-talk” that most investigators are side-stepping!!!


87 posted on 10/07/2013 3:29:11 AM PDT by danamco (-)
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To: abigkahuna
I call this "Frightened Deer Syndrome". Most women will run from a situation than go toe to toe, especially if children are involved.

My dear wife once ran a minivan off road tearing out the drive train avoiding a shooting on a nearby road.
When she got to the house the van was toast. It died in the end of the driveway.

That was 3 years ago and she still won't talk about it to this day. Side note she now has a 4wd truck.

I don't think this lady was crazy, just scared. I'd like to know the real reason she was in DC.

88 posted on 10/07/2013 4:49:44 AM PDT by WhirlwindAttack (There is so much I could say. But I'm smart enough not to.)
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To: Sacajaweau
You use your instincts and training. I don’t always agree with them...but this time...I do.

Well since there wasn't a bomb in the car then 'instincts' would have been dead wrong. And since their policy's say you don't shoot people in cars the the training probably wasn't getting used either. So it seems whoever shot her wasn't employing good instincts or correct training.
89 posted on 10/07/2013 6:31:58 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: ALASKA
She was a threat

Due to the shutdown there were barrakades all over town. You are saying. Did she kill anyone? No. Did she come close? I haven't heard of her nearly hitting anyone. So running into a random gate and then panicking in a warren of strange fences is somehow a capitol offense? Really? If they are that paranoid about threats in DC they should make the whole city off limits to tourists. They should shoot anyone in the city that has a traffic infraction. Hit-and-run is not a capitol offense. How about J-walking? We should put some snipers on the rooftops and have then drop anyone they see doing traffic violations, j walking, littering, etc. You can't be to careful around our precious elites. We mere mortals should be thankful we are even allowed to see them from a distance. Gunning down anyone breaking at traffic law is a small price to pay for their safety.
90 posted on 10/07/2013 6:39:15 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: danamco

Pillow talk/drunk confessions are difficult to prove. My X admitted to three to me in such a state, but when confronted by police I was the crazy one.
He’s such a well respected member of the community and the good ol boy club!


91 posted on 10/07/2013 8:38:53 AM PDT by hoosiermama (Obama: "Born in Kenya" Lying now or then)
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To: nickcarraway

The police seem always willing to engage in reckless, sometimes absurd behaviors when fleeing vehicles are involved. As though the failure to stop on command, is equal to being a murderous terrorist. Often the police make the situation far worse be racing through the streets at incredible speeds, blowing through traffic signals, employing stop sticks, all because one of the 10 million tipsy drivers on the road that night declined to obey. All that needs to be done is to condition the police immunity from suit and prosecution on their acting responsibly and in accordance with police policy.


92 posted on 10/07/2013 8:50:19 AM PDT by anton
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To: nickcarraway

Screw Mariah carey, I didn’t listen to her music anyway, they should shoot madonna too, and that lib tony bennet and lady googoo and beyonce and sinead o’conner.


93 posted on 10/07/2013 11:19:41 AM PDT by longfellow (Bill Maher, the 21st hijacker.)
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To: hoosiermama

She was NOT confronted by the Police. Go and see her whole one hour+ interview and you may change your mind. I did!!!

BTW here’s some news just saw on FB: ...>>>...

http://northamericanlawcenter.org/shut-federal-government-set-uphold-federal-health-care-extortion-scheme/


94 posted on 10/08/2013 7:21:38 AM PDT by danamco (-)
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To: Uncle Chip; mickie; flaglady47; pax_et_bonum; seekthetruth; Chigirl 26; hoosiermama; Bob Ireland; ..
"The family could care less about her. They are only after the money from a settlement. They already had lawyered up and are positioning themselves for a financial settlement - how pathetic."

How cold and callous you are. I saw the family interviewed on TV. It was very moving. They appeared to be good people, quiet, intelligent, well-spoken.....real people like you and me. The effects of the awful death in their family circle was markedly visible on their somber faces and in their body language.

How very pathetic of YOU to ascribe such evil intent to a deeply bereaved family you don't even know.

Leni

95 posted on 10/08/2013 7:49:39 AM PDT by MinuteGal
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To: MinuteGal

I hope they prove me wrong —

Time will tell.

In the meantime where have you been in the discussion here — another late coming mia.


96 posted on 10/08/2013 8:01:08 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip; mickie; flaglady47; pax_et_bonum
"Where have you been....another mia...."

Sorry, Sir Snark....I was in the conversation on the other thread discussing this same subject.

Do I have to have Your Lordship's permission to comment on THIS thread?

Leni

97 posted on 10/08/2013 1:13:20 PM PDT by MinuteGal
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