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To: vg0va3

I am not necessarily opposed to the idea per se, however I believe the problem has more to do with the occupants of our government than with the structure of our government. Certainly, Amendments 16 & 17 need to go, but the deeply entrenched highly organized and well funded organizations that have a stranglehold on our government are the primary culprits. I speak of course of the Democrat and Republican parties. The Democrats are openly subverting law and promote and institutionalize anti-American ideologies. The Republicans have shown themselves to be ineffectual in combating the Democrats. In recent decades they are simpatico with many of the goals of the Democrats differing only on method, invariably a socialist scheme enforced by an authoritarian big government bureaucracy.

These parties are who put us in this mess.


18 posted on 04/03/2014 6:34:53 PM PDT by Ray76 (Take over the GOP? You still beg! Fight for what's right. Forget them.)
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To: Ray76

I generally agree with your post. I would add that the reason both parties follow the marxist mantra is that progressivism has been the dominate political philosophy for the last eighty or so years. So not really so surprising that both parties generally follow the progressive line. They truly know nothing else. Our great challenge is to replace these folks with people who know better.


21 posted on 04/03/2014 6:44:13 PM PDT by Nuc 1.1 (Nuc 1 Liberals aren't Patriots. Remember 1789!)
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To: Ray76

In both repsonses you are explaining what is wrong, as if the rest of us are ignorant to what is happening. We see the same thing you do. Long recitations of what you also believe caused our nations problem do not resolve our issues.

We cant fix this by going to the polls. We cant fix this by hoping that the better angels of our leaders appear one day. What can fix this is the insertion of state government back into a side by side relationship with the citizens of this country back to ruling our federal government rather than as is today. How do you propose that happens?

You even mention that you are unsure of the means of a convention of the states. Many others understand how this can occur. Read the links posted to the ABA paper from the 1970’s on the subject. Refer to the paper written by ALEC. Ask people who are involved in the movement rather than attempting to pursued others when you even admit you do not fully understand.

Please take the time to understand before you offer others advice that could be flat out wrong.


22 posted on 04/03/2014 8:21:26 PM PDT by vg0va3
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To: Ray76; vg0va3
<> I believe the problem has more to do with the occupants of our government than with the structure of our government.<>

Ray76, the first patriot generation, the ones who drafted state constitutions beginning in 1776 agreed with you. To varying degrees, the thirteen new plans of free government were very democratic. Representative assemblies were elected annually, and the upper houses (if they had one) and governors were either appointed by the assemblies or people and kept very weak.

As opposed to our recent experience as royal or proprietary colonies, The People were in charge of the new independent states.

Democratic republics have a way of turning into majoritarian tyrannies. That is what happened, and by the mid-1780s, most states were rewriting their constitutions to provide for means to cool the passions of their lower houses of representatives. It was with these experiences in mind that the framers met in 1787.

There was never any serious consideration whatsoever for a popularly derived senate. The framers knew too well what an overdose of democracy meant for freedom. Federalist 39, 46, 62, 63 go into the details of the importance of a federal senate.

So, back to your point. No republic can suffer a government composed of crooks. The framers knew this, and by creating a senate of the states, they divided power such that it was unlikely a bloc of self-serving men could form to line their pockets or perpetuate themselves in office for life.

Make no mistake, a popularly derived senate is no small tweak of the constitution. The 17th is a monster, a political Frankenstein purposely designed to turn our federal republic into a democratic republic. All democratic republics eventually turn on themselves and end in tyranny.

It is where we are today, and no effort to send “good” people to congress can correct the problem. With repeal of the 17th, restoration of freedom is possible. Without repeal, there is zero chance.

26 posted on 04/04/2014 2:34:21 AM PDT by Jacquerie ( Article V.)
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