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To: BroJoeK

No secession mechanism...again you are assuming that if it isn’t specified as allowed, it isn’t permitted. They knew how to write and include the words “Perpetual Union”, and they chose not to. Even with “Perpetual Union” in the Articles, states seceded from that pact. You don’t read carefully, you don’t know the relevant literature, and you have trouble reasoning. In particular, the doctrine of enumerated powers and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments are a mystery to you. The South, New England, New York City, and others at various times believed they had the right to secede.

You are simply a big government conservative who doesn’t want to recognize what historians already acknowledge; namely, that Lincoln was a dictator who acted largely outside the law. The American Constitutional Republic today is as dead as the Roman Republic in the days of Augustus Caesar, and it is largely the fault of generations of faux “conservatives” like you.


295 posted on 06/11/2014 7:59:17 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

And you don’t want to understand the difference between secession and unilateral secession. Secession as attempted by the slavers wasn’t legal. They didn’t wish to test the theory on a court of law so instead they chose a battlefield.

They chose poorly. Now a war and a SCOTUS ruling reinforces the precept that secession is only permissible by mutual consent.

BTW: The “historians” who hold that Lincoln was a tyrant are the outliers - not the mainstream. Saying that the republic is dead is witless and beneath you. You should stop embarrassing yourself.


296 posted on 06/11/2014 9:54:34 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: achilles2000; rockrr
achilles2000: "No secession mechanism...again you are assuming that if it isn’t specified as allowed, it isn’t permitted."

Really, tell us please, how low does your IQ have to get before you become so utterly lacking in reading comprehension?
What exactly is your problem?

Lawful secession was understood and assumed by the Founders.
Declarations of secession, even though unlawful, were also allowed by both Presidents Buchanan & Lincoln.
What, exactly, don't you "get" about that?

So Civil War came, not because of secession, or slavery, or the new Confederacy, but only because that Confederacy first provoked, then started, then formally declared war on the United States, then supported rebel forces at war within Union states.

That's why debate of lawful secession is irrelevant to causes of the Civil War.

achilles2000: "You don’t read carefully, you don’t know the relevant literature, and you have trouble reasoning."

False, false & false. But your own words clearly do apply to you, FRiend.

achilles2000: "In particular, the doctrine of enumerated powers and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments are a mystery to you.
The South, New England, New York City, and others at various times believed they had the right to secede."

Rubbish. Our Founders agreed to lawful secession, by mutual consent.
None -- not one -- agreed that seceding states had a "constitutional right" to provoke, start and declare war on the United States, or send their forces to invade the Union.

achilles2000: "You are simply a big government conservative who doesn’t want to recognize what historians already acknowledge; namely, that Lincoln was a dictator who acted largely outside the law."

Rubbish. The truth here is that you are an automaton who has your script of pro-Confederate talking points, and are not allowed to deviate from them, even to the point of acknowledging basic facts of history.

So I'm telling you again: throw that stinking script away, and go back to learning some real history for a change.
It will improve your life, and set you free from lies.

achilles2000: "The American Constitutional Republic today is as dead as the Roman Republic in the days of Augustus Caesar, and it is largely the fault of generations of faux “conservatives” like you."

No, the American Constitutional Republic, though wounded, is far, far from dead.
Our President is far from Augustus Caesar who was in his day considered Son of God, life-time Emperor, and subject to no restrictions by elected representatives.

Yes, the Federal government is more than ten times the size of 100 years ago, but the reasons are not because of conservatives like myself.
Instead, the reasons include descendants of European serfs, African slaves and Asian coolies -- men & women born in the land of the free, home of the brave -- who no longer wish to be either brave or free.
Instead, they want return to an idealized manor or plantation, where the Man in the Big House protects & cares for them, while they enjoy the fruits of civilization, without having to pay its full price.

FRiend, I consider your wish to return to the Free Republic of old, to be noble & well intentioned.
But your ignorance of real history, and your slavish devotion to pro-Confederate talking points is frustrating to me, and counter-productive to your cause.

Our Founders themselves understood that slavery was evil, and had to be addressed at some point... in the future, they thought.
Naturally they hoped and did not expect that would lead to Civil War, but they didn't count on the hot-headedness of the Deep South's slave-power Fire Eaters.

301 posted on 06/12/2014 8:35:44 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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