Posted on 09/01/2014 8:04:33 AM PDT by Hojczyk
Russia would have triumphed over the world order imposed by the West after the Soviet Union lost the Cold War. This would mean the destruction of American geopolitical deterrence. America’s enemies, from China to Iran, would see this as an invitation to establish their own spheres of influence amid the wreckage.
Russia would not stop there. Mr. Putin wants to undermine NATO, and the smell of weakness would tempt him further. It would be merely a matter of time before Moscow exploited the Russians in the Baltic States to manufacture new “frozen conflicts.” Poland would feel compelled to act as though NATO did not exist, creating a defensive military alliance of its own with the Baltics; it might even establish a buffer zone in western Ukraine.
There is no easy way out now. But we must not let thousands of Ukrainians die because we dithered. We must be honest with them if we are not willing to fight a new Cold War with Russia over Ukrainians’ independence. But if we force Ukraine to surrender, rather than sacrifice lives in a fight for which we have no stomach, then we must accept that it is a surrender, too, for NATO, for Europe and liberal democracy, and for American global leadership. That is the choice before us.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Wow, nutty as a fruitcake.
That rhetorical question is exactly my point.
As I said, the anti American, tyrannical Putt King is on anti American, tyrannical Putin's side of no arms for Ukraine.
“The Serbs were the good guys, and we helped the Muslims. Go figure.”
Agree...one of the DUMBEST THINGS we ever did...and bi-partisan.
Yeah I hated Clinton policy.
And the Ukrainians are the good guys, Obama does nothing and won't send them arms. Go figure.
And that's not a nutty statement either.
Probably before you were out of diapers. After experiencing five (5) years of NAZI occupation, I enrolled in the Danish Royal Navy 1947. Was transferred to the Army/Airforce. Finally winded up in the new Danish Air Force until 1951. Went to Greenland of building Station NORD (via Blue West Eight and Thule Air Base), about 400 miles from the North Pole. Was there until 1953 when transferred to the Danish colony Dundas next to Thule Air Base until 1956. From then on served in the Merchant Marine until 1983, seeing/visit most countries in the world. probably more than you!!!
Any further questions???
"Ukraine cannot win this war. Mr. Putin has made it clear that the Russian Army will annihilate Ukrainian forces if they attempt to liberate Donetsk and Luhansk. Ukraine’s ramshackle army cannot rout the crack troops and conscript forces of an oil-fueled giant.
The West needs to be honest with Ukraine. We talk as though this country were one of us — as if, one day, it will become a member of the European Union and the NATO alliance. That is Kiev’s wish, but the West is not giving Ukraine the means to fight this war.
Ukraine is being destroyed. The economy is in tatters. The military will not survive a Russian offensive. Ukrainians are taking refuge in romantic nationalism and preparing for partisan warfare. The costs are mounting — continuing to fight will cost thousands of lives — and the liberal dreams of the revolution are drowning in the jingoistic fury and hysteria of war."
At least Ben Judah's assessment of Ukraine's plight versus Russia is accurate. It was obvious from the beginning.
Sorry, it makes PERFECT SENSE to people that understand Russia’s capabilities, versus dumping a bunch of weapons on people that have never used those weapons (i.e., NATO weapons).
Just because you may have lit a few firecrackers in your day DOES NOT make you an expert in assessing relative military capabilities...but fortunately there are ADULTS that do study that and they will likely prevail, and things will end the ONLY WAY Putin will let them end, which is with him controlling whatever piece of Ukraine that he wants to.
Most of Europe/Eurasia needs/depending on his heating natural gas!!!
Do you think Putin going to cut of that pipe giving them bread/butter on the table. If so you also believe in the Tooth Fairy!!
Yeah, where did you get such nutty ideas?
So we have both served in NATO, the difference seems to be that I support NATO, and after you left Denmark, you seemed to have turned against us, and while I don’t know your loyalties during the Cold War, they seem to be to Russia right now.
In your mind that was a relevant post to post 41?
Supporting NATO and wanting to start WORLD WAR 3 (or, in best case, just causing another genocide in Ukraine) are not necessarily the same thing.
Sorry if that’s too much for you.
Slick Willy/Wesley Clark made it possible for the muzzies to overrun Europe and probably many of them came here as well!!Always A Marine!
Dumping weapons? You mean supplying the weapons that they are desperately asking for.
You really don’t know that we supply weapons to many nations that don’t speak English?
Any natural gas transaction between Russia and Europe has two sides. One side pays money and receives natural. The other side sends natural gas and receives money (to pay for their own heat and food...etc).
Both sides will get hurt if Putin cuts the flow of natural gas.
Beyond that are you suggesting that Europe should appease the tyrant?
Some of the Ukrainians are good guys, but there is also a large Nazi contingent among the Ukrainian nationalists in the western part of the country. Regardless, my opposition to US/NATO intervention has nothing to do with who is good and bad, but that we are meddling at Russia's backdoor and that this is not our fight. If Moscow or Beijing abetted a coup in Mexico City and sought to align Mexico in a hostile treaty alliance against the United States, we would have wasted no time invading in force and installing a friendlier regime along our border. That has been our policy under the Monroe Doctrine since 1823.
Unless we are committed to going to war against Russia to guarantee Ukraine's independence from Moscow, we should not commit our prestige and treasure to a wasteful defeat. And we should be honest with Ukraine and stop leading them on with false hope of commitment that does not exist.
You seem determined to find a path to recreating the threat of WWIII, by rebuilding the evil empire.
“Despite the smaller number of U.S. troops in Europe, the military balance there is far more favorable to NATO today than it was when nearly 10 times as many American soldiers, sailors and airmen were stationed on the continent. The reason for this is simple and obvious: the disastrous — from Moscow’s point of view — revision of the overall European security environment that began in the early 1990s.
With unrest continuing in Ukraine, the West can take some comfort in its modern day military advantage over Russia in Europe. And though numbers alone may not deter Russia from further adventurism, the shift in the balance of forces has been remarkable over the past two decades.
According to the International Institute of Strategic Studies’ “Military Balance” publication — a widely-used and well-respected unclassified compendium of information about the world’s armed forces — in 1989, just before the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, the Soviet Union deployed a total of 64 divisions in what was then known as its “Western Theater of Military Operations.” These are the Russian forces that would have been hurled at NATO in an attack on Western Europe. They would have been reinforced by another 700,000 troops from the USSR’s three frontline Warsaw Pact allies, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. In all, more than 100 divisions would have been available for a drive into West Germany and beyond. The six countries committed to defending NATO’s front lines — West Germany, the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Belgium and the Netherlands — meanwhile deployed only 21 or so divisions in Germany. While NATO divisions were generally somewhat larger than their Warsaw Pact counterparts and reinforcement would have been forthcoming from the United States, the disparity along the East-West frontier was nonetheless huge.
Consider the situation today. East Germany no longer exists, while Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and every one of Russia’s other erstwhile Warsaw Pact partners are now members of NATO. So are Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, which in 1989 were parts of the Soviet Union itself. In 1989, the Red Army had almost a half-million troops and 27 maneuver divisions (plus enormous quantities of artillery and other units) on the territory of its three main allies. Today, it has a total of seven divisions in its entire Western Military District, all of which are based on its own territory. Indeed, the entire Russian army today boasts about 25 divisions, fewer than it had forward deployed in its Eastern European allies during the waning days of the Cold War.
Today, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Germany alone field more divisions than Russia has in its Western Military District. These countries are backstopped by the rest of NATO, including, of course, the United States. And this raw count doesn’t take into account the general deterioration of Russian forces since 1991, a quarter-century that saw little equipment modernization. By the late 1980s, NATO already enjoyed a significant qualitative advantage over the Warsaw Pact, and that edge has only increased since then.
Yes, the United States has many fewer forces in Europe than it did in 1989. But Russia has none, its allies have all switched sides, and its military is but a shadow of what it was 25 years ago.”
Here you go again as Reagan said. NO, what I’m against is NATO becoming one of your “sheepdogs” alias attack dogs. It was NEVER created to be that, and that changed in Yugoslavia and in Libya. BTW, who are WE to decide which Heads of States must GO. Like in Libya, Syria, Iraq and other States in Africa and elsewhere???
Seem you by-passed the link about David Rockefeller/ Rothschild!!!
Yeah a good example is the Killary/Chris Stevens’ gun-running operation costing four (4) Americans DEAD!!!
“Dumping weapons? You mean supplying the weapons that they are desperately asking for.”
Assuming our weapons from DECADES AGO still can compete against the modern generation of Russian weapons, there would be NO WAY that we would give those weapons to Ukraine, just to have them ultimately fall into Russian hands.
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