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To: BroJoeK
I merely said that you don’t get a horse from a squirrel or a maple tree from a sequoia.

Nor did any scientist ever say such a thing, and that is your basic problem: you don't know, or won't confess, the truth about scientific theory of evolution.

You can pull out your crap sandwich, but I don't have to eat it, and I'm not going to.  Just help yourself.  I don't know?  I won't confess?  Confess what, that I don't buy into your nonsense?  The theory of evolution is taught in our schools.  It is tought as the origion of the human species over billiosn of years.  And what's more, it is taught exclusively that way, because no other "theory" is allowed in the school system.  So don't wax rhapsodic about what scientists do or do not claim.  That's B. S. and you know it.  If you don't know it, perhaps you should do some studying.  And that is your basic problem, you aren't really being truthful.  So when you have a moment, reflect on what is being taught in the schools, confess, and perahps we'll have something to talk about.  
Fossils show the earliest actual mammals around 160 million years ago, small, insect eating tree climbing.
They were certainly not squirrels, but did perhaps fill some of the same ecological niches squirrel-like creatures fill today.

Yawn.  Yes, I was in the third grade too.

Fossils show the first identifiable ancestors of horses & rhinoceroses -- they were fox to sheep-sized creatures -- around 60 million years ago, relatively soon after dinosaurs' extinction.
The first clearly horse-like fossils -- dog sized -- appeared around 50 million years.  From that point on, each later fossil appears more and more like today's horses.

Identifiable.  LOL, there you go, leaps of fantasy to patch together your smooth transition from amoeba to modern man.  Why we found this here fossil from 160 million years ago.  It's only 18 inches tall, but you can tell right away that it's a horse.  I know it looks more like a sloth right there, but honest, it was a horse.  The DNA shows true lineage.

You find stages, but you don't find a smooth transition.  It's like a movie.  In the movie the characters are talking in an office about going to a lab.  In the next scene they're in the lab.  You assume they went downstairs, walked outside, got in the car, drove side streets to a freeway, traveled down ten miles, got off the freeway, traveled by car on side streets, turned into a parking lot, got out of the car, went inside, went upstairs, went into an office, and wala, the next scene.  Sounds rather complicated, but in your version we're talking about billions of years, trillions if not quadrillions of turns, and suddently we're there, some small animal to horse.  Had to happen just like that.  Roll-em...

You extrapolate out these charming story lines, but you can't prove them.  There are certain building blocks in nature.  The genetic code is there.  Was it because these items came from the same amoeba, or because those building blocks were used by God during creation?  Well, frankly you don't know.
 Can't disprove that can you.  Here you are setting me straight though.  Your theory, and that's all it is, by your own admission is nothing more than that.


As for Sequoia trees, they are not even in the same order as Maple trees, arguably not even in the same phylum, meaning in no possible way did maples turn into sequoias.  Their common ancestors, which were far from either Sequoias or Maples, lived hundreds of millions of years ago.

In a word, DUH!  You actually thought I meant that Maple Trees were around 500 million years ago, and they transitioned to Sequoias right?  No, I know what the theory is.  I don't buy the theory that there was a common ancestor.  You can't prove it, but here we are discussing this anyway.  You have a hypothesis.  That's all you've got..

I don’t buy into evolution as the origin of the human species.

Fossil evidence for distinctly pre-human and human-like creatures goes back millions of years, and some more recent bones have been analyzed for DNA, showing they were very closely related to us -- close enough to be classified in the same species, and to have interbred.

Pre-human..., human like..., close enough...  is there a pattern here?  Yes.  You don't know if they are truly prehuman, human like, or simple close enough... at all.

And yet here we are discussing the issue as if it was settled science.  It's no more settled science than the earth being flat was settled science.  It's a current thoery.  That's all it is, and that's all it will ever will be IMO.

As for God's role in our creation, Genesis tells us that He formed man from the "dust of the ground" and "breathed the breath of life" into us.

Seems to me, that is also what evolution theory tells us.

Except one thing, Evolution is being taught as fact, and the other theory is laughed at by the brillaint scientific community.  This the same community that holds certain beliefs in mind for decades calling anyone that doesn't agree with accepted theory to be an essential heretic, but on this one we're supposed to accept everything hook line and sinker.  NO!  I've watched as the two clever by half folks have had to backtrack and accept that they were wrong over and over and over again.  

I don’t buy into the idea that every animal came from some space spill on isle 6 or a lightening bolt in a pond.


I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, but so far as I know, no evidence has ever been found that all life on Earth is not somehow related, meaning descended from common ancestors.

Funny, you addressed the issue spot on.  How did you do that without having any idea what that was supposed to mean?

Did all life come from the same source?  You statement here leaves that distinct possibility.  And frankly, that's what you guys believe.  You believe that based on common genetic codes.  Well the same thing could be the outcome of creation.  A supreme being having the genetic code knowledge, utilized that knowedge to bring forth vegitaion, living animals, man, and the other forms of life on earth using the same building blocks.  Can you explain to me why creation would have had to use different genetic codes with every living thing on the planet, no commonalities allowed?  To simplify, the answer is NO.


What's certainly true is that we have, as yet, no confirmed theory on how life first arose on Earth -- whether home-grown, or imported from some other star-system, we don't know. Yet.

No, you don't know yet, but you do know there are only about three theories for it, and none of them include God.  Ligthening, meteor, or volcanic activity...  I believe those are the three main theories today.


Therefore: at this point, almost any hypothesis is still a possibility.

Theory.  That's basically what this is.  Every bit of it.  There are many things you know, and as many or more things you don't.  That's the truth of it.

Science does not prove that was the case.  That’s the end of the story for me.


Literally, science does not "prove" any hypothesis, theory, or even observation.  The best science can hope to do is confirm by repeated experiments that a theory is not false.  So, do you begin to comprehend that science is not all-about "certainty"?
So we don't "believe" a scientific theory, we merely accept it as having been confirmed, pending some better confirmed explanation.  That's the way science works.

Oh yes, here you folks talk about uncertainty.  Then in the schools you teach the theory as if there is no other answer.  You're so deathly afraid that creationism will creep in, that you feel compelled to come here and prattle on about things you honestly can't prove at all.  You even admit as much.  Then you ask me to confess.  No, you confess.

Nor does science require anybody to accept any of its hypotheses & theories.  The only real restriction is: you must not call your own religious ideas "science", because they are not.

When they started selling Evolution as the only thoery allowed, they took the science right out of it.

I believe in creation.  I cannot prove my theory either.  My theory is not allowed to be taught.  Your theory is.

What are you big boys who can't prove a damn thing afraid of?

208 posted on 11/10/2014 4:38:24 PM PST by DoughtyOne (The mid-term elections were perfect for him. Now Obama can really lead from behind.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 205 | View Replies ]


To: DoughtyOne
DoughtyOne: "I won't confess? Confess what, that I don't buy into your nonsense?"

No, confess/tell the truth about science and evolution.
You speak of it only with mocking distortions, never accurately, never as if you truly understand it.
So I'm beginning to think that not only do you not really understand it, you also don't want to understand it.
After all, serious understanding might inhibit your constant mocking.

DoughtyOne: "It is tought as the origion of the human species over billiosn of years.
And what's more, it is taught exclusively that way, because no other "theory" is allowed in the school system."

Incorrect. In many government schools, they do have classes in religion taught by religious people, and there they discuss Genesis all they wish.
But evolution is the only scientific theory accepted and therefore appropriate for science classes.
Genesis is not natural-science, period.
Indeed, it's the opposite of natural-science and is best discussed in houses of worship or classes devoted to spiritual matters.

DoughtyOne: "So don't wax rhapsodic about what scientists do or do not claim.
That's B. S. and you know it."

First, I would not necessarily consider grade school or high school teachers to be "scientists", and I wouldn't defend what they may or may not teach in class.
Second, I'm not "waxing rhapsodic", simply reporting the facts of what science is, and what it says.
But you obviously don't comprehend it, since all you can do is distort and mock.

DoughtyOne: "And that is your basic problem, you aren't really being truthful."

Of course I'm truthful, always. But you always refuse to understand, don't you?
For example, when you are presented with actual facts about ancient fossils, your only response is mockery:

DoughtyOne: "Yawn. Yes, I was in the third grade too."

DoughtyOne: "Why we found this here fossil from 160 million years ago.
It's only 18 inches tall, but you can tell right away that it's a horse."

So, you see, nothing but distortions and mockery -- you are a true disciple of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: never engage seriously, only personalize, distort and ridicule.

DoughtyOne: "You find stages, but you don't find a smooth transition."

Just as you won't find a smooth transition between wild wolves and domestic dogs, and yet we know for certain there were transitional forms.
The fact that we can't find all the transitions today doesn't mean they never happened.

DoughtyOne: "You extrapolate out these charming story lines, but you can't prove them."

I'll repeat: outside of mathematical theorems, science never "proves" any theory, the best it can do is confirm by observation and experimentation.
So evolution is an often confirmed scientific theory, the only scientific hypothesis on the subject which was ever confirmed.

DoughtyOne: "Was it because these items came from the same amoeba, or because those building blocks were used by God during creation? "

I'll repeat what I've posted before: I believe God created every living thing on earth, using evolution as one of His tools.
So I don't look for some exceptional sign of "intelligent design", because as far as I'm concerned, everything is His Intelligent Design.
And I don't dispute the science of evolution, since I think it fully displays God's creative genius at work.

DoughtyOne: "Here you are setting me straight though.
Your theory, and that's all it is, by your own admission is nothing more than that."

By your own admission here, you have no real concept of what science is, and what it does, and so the only thing you can think to do is distort and mock.
Yes, evolution is a confirmed theory, but all those various ideas about how life first arose on Earth -- those are not even theories, they are unconfirmed hypotheses, which means basically, highly informed speculations.
If they interest you, fine, but if they don't, then no harm has been done...

DoughtyOne: "You actually thought I meant that Maple Trees were around 500 million years ago, and they transitioned to Sequoias right?"

Because that's what you said, and now are trying to weasel out of it, pretending oh, you really knew all along that your words were just jabbering nonsense!
And next you'll pretend not to understand why I've called you dishonest -- by your own words!

DoughtyOne: "You have a hypothesis. That's all you've got.."

I'll repeat: evolution is more than hypothesis, it's a confirmed theory.
But various ideas about the origin of life on earth are just hypotheses, none of them yet confirmed theories.

DoughtyOne: "Pre-human..., human like..., close enough... is there a pattern here? Yes.
You don't know if they are truly prehuman, human like, or simple close enough... at all."

Both designations, "pre-human" and "human like" accurately describe fossil-bones older than the oldest known biologically modern humans, even those which were not our direct ancestors.

Here's what we do know for certain: the older the bones, the less human-like, while the newer bones look more and more like modern humans.
We also know that the DNA of such creatures as ancient Neanderthals and Denisovans is close enough to ours that they were not really separate species, but sub-species who could and did interbreed with our own ancestors.

Of course, if you wish to believe that humans suddenly appeared out of the dust, with no pre-human ancestors, then that is your choice, go right ahead.
Just don't call your beliefs a form of "science", because they are not.

DoughtyOne: "And yet here we are discussing the issue as if it was settled science.
It's no more settled science than the earth being flat was settled science."

In my lifetime there were still people who claimed the earth is flat, and perhaps some still do.
So, for those people, the "science" is certainly not "settled", and will never be.
But the term "settled science" does not refer to whether or not you believe it -- your beliefs are irrelevant to science.
No, the term "settled science" simply means that most scientists accept the idea, and nobody is seriously still working to falsify it.

DoughtyOne: "Evolution is being taught as fact, and the other theory is laughed at by the brillaint scientific community."

Evolution is a theory confirmed by many, many facts, as many as any theory in science.
And there is no competing scientific theory on the subject.
Yes, many years ago, there was some scientific debate about the biological mechanism for change, but those were long ago resolved.
So today there is only one scientific theory, and that is evolution.
Yes, some people do still dispute evolution, but not on strictly scientific grounds.
Rather, they use pseudo-scientific arguments to support their religious convictions, arguments which are patently ridiculous and don't qualify as "science".

DoughtyOne: "This the same community that holds certain beliefs in mind for decades calling anyone that doesn't agree with accepted theory to be an essential heretic, but on this one we're supposed to accept everything hook line and sinker. NO!
I've watched as the two clever by half folks have had to backtrack and accept that they were wrong over and over and over again."

"Two clever by half"? Are you sure?
I'll grant you that even the most brilliant scientists don't always make the very best debaters, and even the very best debaters will never convince someone like yourself, who refuses to acknowledge even the basics, instead focusing on distortions and mockery.

DoughtyOne: "Funny, you addressed the issue spot on.
How did you do that without having any idea what that was supposed to mean?"

Probably coincidence, because I claim no great skill at decoding your mocking & distorting comments.

DoughtyOne: "Did all life come from the same source?
You statement here leaves that distinct possibility.
And frankly, that's what you guys believe.
You believe that based on common genetic codes.
Well the same thing could be the outcome of creation.
A supreme being having the genetic code knowledge..."

I'll repeat: I believe it was the outcome of God's creation, through His genetic code which evolved to make every living thing on earth, since everything which we consider truly alive has some form of DNA.

DoughtyOne: "No, you don't know yet, but you do know there are only about three theories for it, and none of them include God.
Ligthening, meteor, or volcanic activity...
I believe those are the three main theories today."

Somewhere recently I saw a listing of six or eight different hypotheses -- none are confirmed theories -- which did include "panspermia", meaning perhaps life arrived from outer space, aboard a comet or even alien space ship.
Whether such an alien could ever be considered our God, of course that's a matter which natural-science cannot address.

DoughtyOne: "Theory. That's basically what this is. Every bit of it."

No, you still don't understand!
Those are not confirmed theories, they are unconfirmed hypotheses, which means basically informed speculations.
No scientists claims to know for certain how life first rose on Earth.

DoughtyOne: "Oh yes, here you folks talk about uncertainty.
Then in the schools you teach the theory as if there is no other answer."

But there is no other scientific theory concerning evolution.
Your creationism is a religious doctrine which is properly taught in places of worship, places where one religion's doctrines will not come into conflict with others.

DoughtyOne: "You're so deathly afraid that creationism will creep in, that you feel compelled to come here and prattle on about things you honestly can't prove at all.
You even admit as much.
Then you ask me to confess.
No, you confess."

FRiend, you are only forgiven and excused from telling the truth if you honestly don't know it.
But you have now been told and taught in considerable detail, and yet your only responses have been to distort, mock and ignore the facts in favor of your own doctrines.
I said in my very first post to you that you have a serious problem with truth-telling, and you need to work on overcoming that -- yet you refuse.

So let me end this as I always do: you are entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe regarding scientific matters -- flat earth, young earth, recent deluge... whatever you want -- just so long as you don't pretend your religious convictions have something to do with science, because they don't.

DoughtyOne: "I believe in creation. I cannot prove my theory either.
My theory is not allowed to be taught.
Your theory is."

But your "theory" is not a scientific theory, it's a religious belief which is taught in every church in the world every Sunday and usually several other days of the week as well.
But by US law, your religion is not allowed to be taught in government run science classes, among other reasons because if they allowed your religious beliefs, then they would also have to provide for the beliefs of everybody else.
Probably not a good idea.
Best to teach such ideas in churches which are specifically intended for that purpose.

217 posted on 11/11/2014 12:57:09 PM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective..)
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