Posted on 05/24/2015 3:17:18 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
Re-educating employers would help as well.
If it doesn't require a college degree to be President of the United States of America ( for example: Harry S Truman) then it does require one to be the events planner or check-in clerk at a high end hotel.
Suggestion:
1) Encourage employers to use SAT/ACT scores and internships to identify bright and teachable potential employees.
2) Encourage employers to remember that most jobs done in the U.S. are learned on the job.
Okay, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were advocating that professors be judged solely on the subsequent earnings of their students and said expensive colleges were a waste of money.
Yeah, I’ll agree with you that too many parents are to beholden to funding their children’s misguided whims and to keeping up with where the Joneses are sending their kids.
But I’m find if they want to make that error—just so long as others, as in taxpayers, aren’t paying for it.
Okers.
I agree.
Charles Murray has written wonderful essays on using qualifying exams ( instead of college transcripts) to show proficiency in various areas of knowledge. Kahn Academy math classes are already available on the Internet. Why not simply offer a certifiable exam at a reputable testing agency and use this score for employment and academic purposes?
Also....Most of the work done in the U.S. requires no more ( at most) a solid 8th graded education. Even being President of the United States of America does NOT require a college degree. Harry S Truman never went to college!
Employers should be encouraged to use SAT/ACT scores and internships to identify bright and teachable employees.
I teach computer science. And, yes, SOME people without a degree are successful programmers/software engineers. However, the vast majority of students are not that motivated. Learning to program well requires a tremendous amount of work and they need someone to guide them though the process. If left to their own devices, most self described “hackers” will just end up playing video games (I’ve witnessed this first hand).
With regard to my discipline, there are a dizzying number of free online courses and tutorials available. Most of these are incredibly under utilized. The free, online courses especially have a dismal record. Many times, less than 10% of those who start actually finish. There also also 2-4 week programming boot camps, but I don’t really trust those as good sources.
And here is a dirty little secret about employers: they don’t want to be educators. Almost all employers want people who are ready to be productive from day one (or with a minimum of training). So, they look for college grads who have a degree in computer science, as it proves some ability. Increasingly, they will ALSO ask for other proof of ability (like demo programs or documented participation in open source projects). If these are impressive enough, they CAN substitute for the college degree. I can’t entirely blame them, as educating workers adds to overhead. This is a definite change from 40-50 years ago, but it is what it is.
BTW—Good programmers without a CS degree often have a music background. Many musicians have an aptitude for programming.
I would modify this a bit. It should not just be college courses.
1) **ALL** state provided teaching should be available on the Internet, from K-12 through the highest levels of graduate school. Video it all, provide the textbooks in the local library or on-line, and put it On-Line for all to see.
2) And...Any child or adult of any age who scores high enough on the SAT, ACT, or GED exams should ( if he wishes) be granted an **official** diploma from their local high school. This would give the child access to scholarships and entrance to the military that might otherwise be denied due to lack of an official high school diploma.
3) All high school senior students should be required to take the GED and pass it. If they don't they would not be given an official high school diploma. They would be given a certificate of attendance instead. As a retired employer, personally, I am sick of high school grads who are completely innumerate and barely literate.
But...Honestly...Does it require a college degree to be the check-in clerk at a hotel? My grandmother would find that laughable.
Internships are becoming absolutely necessary to get a job. I believe employers are now demanding internships because they simply can not trust that a college degree is a valid measure of education. Given what I see as a current student in my local community college, I would require an internship, too, if I were an employer.
Does it require a college degree to be the check-in clerk at a hotel?
Taking your trade to another country is a different matter. The traditional degree is viewed as skilled labor, but the trades are not always viewed as such if taken to other countries.
(Never mind the threat of illegals in some trades)
I’m going to hazard a guess that you’ve not been in the military or you’d understand that one of the things the military does well is career placement and development. This would enhance the previous training while in high school/career-tech by placing the new military member to take advantage of that training. Then, further career development in that job plus leadership training = more bang for the taxpayer $$$ and the military member has great civilian opportunities.
And here is a dirty little secret about employers: they don’t want to be educators. ( rbg81)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So?...Employers do train?..Anyway,...I’ve had this discussion with my husband. He is very dismissive my my ideas. His comment is, “Employers demand college degrees because they can!”
My husband ( Ph.D. in chemistry) worked for one of the world’s largest chemical industries. In my father’s era is was rare for this company to have Ph.D. chemists. A B.S. was enough. This company, and others, trained its own chemists during the first half of the 20th century. Yes, they invested a tremendous amount of resources in their employees but there was a hook to keep them in the company. Retirement benefits and vacation time didn’t start to grow significantly until they had worked with the same company for 20 or 25 years (or more).
Then what is your thought on those that have relevant experience prior to a degree but no internships? Insist on the internships, consider the experience as a potential substitute, or some other case? I definitely see it being a preference, even for the technical fields.
As for my perspective, it comes from someone with a degree in the technical side of business (MIS).
In my clinic, resumes that showed only a high school diploma went straight into the trash can. I only interviewed those with some college attendance. I did this for jobs that in my mother's day would have required only a sound 6th grade education. Why?
Answer: Because I had wasted far too much time interviewing high school graduates who were nearly illiterate and almost completely innumerate! Some college attendance did show that I was likely to have interview with someone with some chance of being trainable.
Also...Even employees with previous work experience in our field required training. The computer software varies from clinic to clinic and it takes time to learn a new system.
But...If it doesn't require a college attendance to be President of the United States of America, then there is plenty of work out there in the world that doesn't require college attendance, as well!
My husband and I have this discussion occasionally. He is very dismissive. His comment: “Employers require college degrees because they can!”
By the way, before I retired I didn’t practice what I am now preaching.....
What’s the problem with that?”
One thing to consider is the fact that many students are overgrown liberal brats that despise instructors that insist they learn the subject matter, think, analyze, write clearly, arrive on-time for class, don't text and surf the web and yack to the student next to them. In other words, act like a mature adult.
When it comes to student evals most students don't fill them out. . .the other fact is, the slackers usually fill them out and let loose all sorts of allegations. . .too include the ultimate allegation—racism.
That is what is wrong with student evals. They should not be, must not be used when it comes to defining if an instructor is doing his job and doing it well.
The challenge is to find a fact-based method to do so. I have no suggestion regarding that as I am still thinking it over.
I teach college federal government classes. I examine the subject as “process” and “policy.” Process is the mechanics of government, how it is constructed and ‘works,’ whereas ‘policy’ is defined as a political philosophy and elected officials use process to implement policy.
That said, when engaging students I challenge them to think why they feel a certain way;
Meaning I challenge them when to offer a (usually uninformed) opinion.
That means I counter their usual liberal opinion with a conservative point of view.
That means most times I am taking the conservative side. I also argue the liberal side when necessary. I am trying to get students to learn both sides of an issue so they can come to their opinion honestly and from an informed perspective.
This results in end-of-course student evals that accuse bias and unfairness, trying to push conservative views on them. (Another good argument against using student evals, would silence the "other" - conservative-side).
Great idea. . . .as long as we don't include in those stats students that are given a degree in afro-america feminist studies and gender-norming, the new metric of fairness.
See my POst 76.
And if he doesn’t uphold his side of the deal (attend class and do the assignments), said customer has no standing when completing a survey.
Have you every changed your mind on anything in your lifetime?
I recommend Charles Murray's essays. He puts forth some very coherent and powerful ideas about alternatives to higher education. His studies on the matter show that if a person has less than an IQ of 115 their chances of finishing college drop dramatically with each point less than that. For those in the STEM programs the IQ needed for success is even higher.
Maybe, because I am open to new ideas, that professors ( one after the other) have consistently said to me, “You are the best student, I have ever had. I wish all my students were like you!” Yep! As a retired person now attending community college for my own enrichment, this is **consistently** happening again.
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