Test Pilot Admits the F-35 Can’t Dogfight

War is Boring ^ | 06/29/2015 | DAVID AXE

[semaj]

Another expensive boondoggle.

[Red Badger]

The Russians have already said their new radars can now pick the F-35 up, so the ‘stealth’ enhancements are no longer a factor.................

[Red Badger]

Looks like the offspring of an F-4 and a F-18.....................

[Red Badger]

Are there any cheap boondoggles?...............

[semaj]

>"Are there any cheap boondoggles"

Failing to find specific items at Home Depot or Wal-Mart come to mind. I live outside of town and its a 30 mile round trip.

[Red Badger]

I check the internet for local stock items. Their websites will tell if the item is ‘in stock’..................and I live just 2-3 miles from both................

[Uncle Miltie]

To keep A-10s flying.

[semaj]

Why didn’t I think of that? Thanks.

[WayneS]

The F-35 was flying “clean,” with no weapons in its bomb bay or under its wings and fuselage. The F-16, by contrast, was hauling two bulky underwing drop tanks, putting the older jet at an aerodynamic disadvantage.

[Moonman62]

Never let em get that close!

...

Yep. The F-35 was never intended to be a dogfighter.

[ImJustAnotherOkie]

There is a lot of competition for that job. Not to mention a fairly expensive way to do it. They just need to add curb feelers and be done with it.

[PilotDave]

This is really bad for the F-35. The F-16 was designed in the 70’s as a light weight primarily air to ground fighter. It initially wasn’t even equipped with a radar guided missile!
This test was a stacked deck for the F-35. They put it up against an older (block 40) 2 seat F-16 with 2 external Fuel tanks. 2 tanks limit the Viper’s performance dramatically. Lower the g limits, increased energy loss etc. Those tanks are called drop tanks for a reason. You burn the fuel out of them first. Then in a combat situation, drop them off the plane.
Even with the deck stacked against it the F-16 was superior. Had they used a newer, clean, single seat F-16 with modern AMRAAM’s and AIM-9 missiles... Oof.
It’s safe to assume both pilots were world class. Not too many guys make it to that level and suck.

[NELSON111]

>>> One guy, though, could be said to be sour grapes at being bested in the air by a better stick.

A test pilot is not just "one guy" who gets beat....and he's no novice. First...you can look at the thing and know it's not going to be a dog-fighter. Second...don't let them get that close. If the A-AM's are great and the radar is great...it shouldn't be much of an issue.

I would imagine you could put a 1Lt out of flight school in the F-16 and the most seasoned pilot in that rock...and the newbie would win in a dog fight that went to guns (no missiles). Not a shocker.

[stump56]

Ouch, this article is very telling. The F-35 program is probably making Boyd spin violently inside his grave. Any fighter/attack aircraft in today’s military must be able to dogfight. And, dog fighting is all about energy and maneuverability. The F-16 is designed specifically to optimize these characteristics, and the F-35 does not appear to be. The only way ahead is better stand-off weapons for the F-35 (and that is a bleak hope for this $$$ weapon system). Hope UCAVs can replace this deficiency.

[GBA]

Not really surprised to read this.

I've never thought of the F-35 as a fighter, but rather a fighter/bomber, with the emphasis on the bomber part.

When I look at that picture, I see the technology driven evolution of the F-105 to become the F-35, and the F-86 to become the F-16.

In that pic, you see the difference between a modern, purpose-built "Strike" fighter and a lightweight dog fighter.

[Forward the Light Brigade]

How does it stack up to the Mig-35? Will we be sending up this “flying coffin” up as cannon fodder in a real war? Will this be the P-40 vs the Zero Rematch? Do we really think the days of the dog fight are over?

[ExNewsExSpook]

Another cherry-picked hit piece from the War is Boring crowd.

Some of the scenarios described in after-action report are completely unrealistic. Gun track? I don’t think there has been an air-to-air kill using a gun since the Vietnam War; in that conflict, we discovered that a gun was still useful because the reliability of air-to-air missiles (particularly the AIM-7) was poor. On several occasions, F-4 pilots had to transition to a maneuvering, WVR engagement because their AIM-7s failed to guide on the target.

Since then, the reliability of our AAMs (particularly AMRAAM variants and the AIM-9X) have improved dramatically. So, the vast majority of future engagements will be fought in the beyond visual range (BVR) arena, and that’s where the F-35 should have an advantage.

The key is situational awareness—preventing the other guy from jumping you and establishing a turning, within-visual-range (WVR) fight from the onset. And once again, the War is Boring gang cherry picks their info.

Flying in a many-v-many exercise like Red Flag (or actual combat), the F-35 is going to be networked into a vast array of sensors, like the F-22. The data gives them a “God’s-eye view” of the fight, with various tracks color-coded as friendly, hostile or unknown. By comparison, the JTIDS data link (and AWACS/Rivet Joint radio calls) used by the F-15 and F-16 are helpful, but they don’t have the big picture view you get in F-35 cockpit. That information helps the pilot assess the tactical environment and make the right decisions.

To be fair, the F-35 has its deficiencies; many of the planned upgrades that will further improve combat capabilities won’t occur until later production blocks, early in the next decade. And it’s very obvious that we made a huge mistake in limiting F-22 production to 187 aircraft. You’ll recall that critics said the Raptor was too expensive and didn’t deliver enough bang for the buck.

Now, it’s hard to find someone who won’t sing its praises, loud and long. As one USAF aggressor pilot told The Atlantic a few years ago, “I saw a Raptor just the other day; it was passing overhead, just after it called me dead.”

I’m waiting for War is Boring to post the results of the F-35 versus F-16, with the Lightning II in full stealth mode, and both carrying AIM-120s and AIM-9Xs. Then, let’s see what the kill ratio is...

[TexasGator]

Reminds me about the time the F-14 was rolled out.

[Daus]

Yes, there is a cottage industry of click bait driven F-35 outrage out there.

These stories have merit in letting folks know where we are at an early stage but presenting it without context is just stirring the pot. If the pilot is having to visually spot the enemy behind him, I'm guessing most of his sensor suite was not available to him. That's kind of the point of the F-35. Shame on them for being late, but this report is not indicative of what this plane is capable of once fully deployed.

[C19fan]

I have read stuff that compared the F-35 to the F-105 Thunderchief let us say earned the nicknamed the Thud or the Lead Shed. The only way the F-35 will be effective in the air superiority role is if the stealth works and it can kill the opponent beyond visual range.