Posted on 07/13/2015 11:33:52 AM PDT by Republican1795.
There is definitive proof that the besieged Confederate Battle Flag is not and cannot in fact be a so called racist flag. A lot of people do not realize that there is definitive proof because they simply have not looked into the history as closely as they should. I discovered this important tidbit myself about fifteen years ago when I first looked into the topic of the so called Civil War / War Between the States / The War of Northern Aggression. Most people do not realize that different states seceded for different reasons and that they all did not secede all at once. I will get straight to the point. The states of North Carolina / Virginia / Tennessee and Arkansas were the last states to secede and they only did so because the North had invaded the CSA (the other southern states that seceded prior ) thus were prompted / forced to join their Southern brethren in response to Northern aggression. This is a relevant point because the flag that is often referred to as the Confederate Battle Flag [ the thirteen star emblazoned blue saltire on the red background ] was first used by the Army of Northern Virginia [ in square form ] and then later by the Army of Tennessee - in rectangular form just like the CSA Naval Flag. Therefore since the Confederate Battle Flag was from the battles flags of two of the states that seceded solely due to the Northern invasion and not for any slave related political considerations [ in fact slavery played a very minor role in the whole debate throughout the CSA ], there can be no legitimate stigmatization of the Confederate Battle Flag somehow being a racist flag.
A better case can be made for the various CSA National flags [ of which there were 3 ] since those were the official flags of the CSA State, yet few ever appear to complain about those flags. Furthermore there were many free Black Southrons that fought for the CSA. Thus the CSA armies were not all White and the vast majority of the White Southrons did not even own slaves nor cared to maintain that institution. Also it is important to remember that a flag [ as a piece of cloth ] cannot be racist nor hold any ideologies seeing as it is an inanimate object that can be defined in any way by anyone with its meaning being determined by its owner. Testament to this is the fact that it is used all around the world as a flag of resistance and rebellion.
The slave owners wanted to remain in the Union as they had a much better deal to remain within it but later many decided to join the Confederate cause as they wanted to protect their interests should the Confederates have won the war. The Confederate Battle Flag is a flag that came to represent the entire Southron people in the same way that the old Saint Jean Baptiste Société Flag of Quebec [ with its strong religious connotations and symbolism ] later came to represent the people of Quebec [ who are now quite anti religious ] after Premier Maurice Duplessis adopted it as the flag of Quebec during the late 1940s. Therefore flags can change their meaning over time. The Fleur de Lis Flag no longer represents simply a religious context but now represents the entire Francophone [ also everyone in Quebec as a whole ] population of the Canadian province of Quebec. Just as the Confederate Battle Flag once represented some of the Confederate soldiers... but now has since the early 20th cent come to represent the entire Southern population.
If I’ve read my War of Secession history correctly, it was the South that bombarded Ft. Sumter first and prior to that cadets from VMI fired upon a supply ship to the fort a few months before. Had the North invaded the South or fired upon the South first?
Silly Conservative....
Things like “Truth”, “Facts” or “Proof” no longer matter to the sheeple majority. The ONLY thing that matters is how the currently-approved Radical Dem Meme is spun and presented.
But you must look at that event in the fuller context. The South could not have just sat back and let the North “resupply” forts or areas that no longer belonged to the North because if they just sat back and let the North occupy Dixie... they would have had no chance of ever wining the war. It was a case of the North forcing Dixie’s hand. One can debate whether it was the right move or not. But one thing was clear... the CSA could not afford to just let the North station more and more troops in Dixie as that would render the attempt to resist the North moot. Consider this: if some invades your home under the pretext of “resupplying” your refrigerator and bring some friends [ who are not friendly towards you ] without your consent: you would not be in the wrong to shoot them seeing as they would be trespassing on private land.
CBF
Lincoln flat out lied to the Southern delegation in D.C. considering Fort Sumter. He manipulated the situation to start the war on purpose, willing to kill and did 600K lives to insure the Northern states dominance over the pesky South. The North could have at any time from the 1840 to the time of secession emancipated the slaves just in the same way that England did but the greed of power and political dominance by the North did not allow that option.
Bookmarking.
But there was no war at the time. The South fired the first shots.
‘Tho’ I doubt VMI cadets were involved in the incident of firing on the US supply ship to Ft. Sumter; perhaps you are thinking of the students of the Citadel?
Not to mention the actions of certain Secessionists in Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, to name but a few, who seized Federal property by force even before their States seceded (or indeed, whose States never officially seceded at all) Confederate troops occupied Virginia, Kentucky and Missouri before those States seceded; Pro-Secessionst mobs attacked Northern, pro-Union State Militias passing through Maryland on their way to Washington, DC; and pro-Secessionist militias attacked pro-Unionist Militias and Federal installations in Missouri.
It's naive and silly crap like this that makes us lose.
"Look, I'm not racist! Here's proof!
And then a long boring diatribe about American history and the Civil War.
Yes, you are factually correct. You know your history. You have presented a logical and well written argument.
And..... A Liberal woudld destroy you in 2 seconds with 2 words...... "You're Racist"
This stuff doesn't work anymore. Most people in this country not only don't know ANYTHING about history or the Civil War, they can't even spell the words "civil" or "war."
All that being said, the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia had no political connotations until after the War, when it became a symbol of the “Lost Cause”, and acquired the association with the idea that the ex-slaves, and non-whites in general(not to mention non-Southren [sic]Whites), were inherently inferior to the White former ruling classes.
Your point is one engineered out of half truths to buttress your intended goal, that of excusing secession. The FACT is nearly EVERY southern state issued a secession statement and in those statements slavery is mentioned above all reasons. So, if you take the word of the ACTUAL people who seceded, and not that of lost cause apologists, you’d come to understand that slavery was the main (though not the only) reason the south left the union.
Oh, I think quite a few could spell war, spelling civil might well prove to be too much for them though and defining civil would almost certainly be beyond the abilities of most. As for naming the starting year and the ending year that is something only a very tiny percentage are capable of and the majority can not even name the century. There is one thing the left has done with an efficiency that few could imagine and that is the dumbing down of the average American.
To me the whole thing was blown out of proportion. The guy was wearing a Gold’s Gym t-shirt therefor using the same logic Gold’s Gym is a center for terrorism and should be shut down.
We've fought the WoS many times here over the past several years. Got to be a lot of nitpicking over this or that. It was fun and entertaining until some people got down right nasty.
*
Agree.
I know I sound like a jerk in my reply to the OP, but this stuff is why Liberals continue to kick our teeth in. The OP posted a good academic argument that would be good for conservatives only to read, but it contains no useful or compelling information for anybody other than a Civil War buff.
It's also yet another example of the Conservative argument that has failed so miserably so many times for so many years........
"I'm not racist. Let me convince you with facts and logic about how I'm not racist. I'm not racist, listen carefully and I'll explain it to you."
I’m just wondering when and if the Democrats will apologize for wanting to keep slavery?
Ummm... pull out a US map... no, really, go on, we'll wait for a sec...
Got it? Okay, good. Now look up SOUTH CAROLINA... over there on the lower right... it's kinda far from the Pennsylvania/Maryland border, aka the Mason-Dixon Line.
Now, WHERE were those first shots fired again? Ft Sumter... Ft Sumter... in WHAT state? That's right, SOUTH CAROLINA.
Sooooo... Were the Confederate troops firing weapons with a range of 460 miles, the distance from Ft Sumter to Pennsylvania? No?
So WHERE were those Union troops when they were getting fired upon, more than FIVE MONTHS after South Carolina seceded (NOV 9 to APR 12)?
Foreign troops, more than 400 miles from their territory, refusing to leave for more than five months... hmmmm... sounds an awful lot like they weren't anywhere close to Pennsylvania, and sounds like they were occupying a military installation that did not belong to them. Hmmmmm.
Now, if a Mexican battalion was doing joint exercises with US troops in Ft Hood (near Waco, TX, just 300 mi from Mexico) decided to not leave... for five months... and we opened fire to force them to decide to leave... what would you call that?
Doesn’t matter about facts and hostory..what matters is what liberals believe...about the flag, global warming, gay marriage. It is a waste if time to reason and argue.
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