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To: Mr Ramsbotham
While I am absolutely clear about the pernicious political as well as an economic effects of unrestrained immigration, I confess I am ambivalent about trade policy.

I am fully aware of the libertarian argument for free trade yet my experience of living in Germany presents different evidence to my own eyes. The Germans are outwardly free traders but they remain stubbornly protective of their economy and their industries. They even drove Walmart out of Bavaria!

I quite agree with the authors' prescriptions of cutting taxes and cutting regulation as the important steps in making America competitive but I have to concede that Europe, Germany not excluded, is top-heavy with regulations yet Germany remains one of the strongest exporters in the world.

Germany has a different training system the United States which features heavy emphasis on apprenticeship and the training is thorough and required for even the most pedestrian of occupations. It seems that the emphasis is not on creating competition but in setting up a system in which existing businesses thrive. That means that startup competitors face barriers and young people are channeled through apprenticeship into industries but in the course of their training they acquire knowledge and experience of real value. On the university level, its technical and scientific achievements rank among the highest in the world.

In their exports it does not appear that the Germans compete on price but on quality. As to imports, they are not indiscriminate buyers on the basis of price alone. They will pay a little more for German product. Walmart was simply unwilling to cope with the employment regulations and with the culture and so left.

My point? If we buy the ideological argument that free trade is indispensable we must ask, to whom? Clearly, we have hollowed out our manufacturing base and with it the blue collar jobs. There comes a point when mercantilist arguments have to have their effect. We are conceivably approaching the time when we will not be able to compete with the Chinese Navy because they will be able to manufacture ships at a rate which we cannot match. Free trade does not work if job loss in basic manufacturing industries cannot be compensated for by job gain in higher technological industries but that that is largely determined by our educational system which sucks. Indeed, there is mounting evidence that the Chinese are becoming very proficient in high-technology. Even with the best educational system turning out the best technicians, a lag time will always create employment dislocations and political problems. The Germans seem to slow the process down until their technicians are up to the task and can compete.

Perhaps it stems from the fact that Germany is a homogeneous society (and will remain so for a little while until the flood of immigrants utterly changes the culture) and therefore capable of a consensus but the diversity of the United States is proving not our strength but our Achilles' heel and has created an every-man-for-himself culture in a universe where the government is clearly for sale.

If The Donald is actually elected, will he be selective in his trade policy or will he instead ignite a trade war?


36 posted on 08/29/2015 10:08:14 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford
I'm inclined to think that whatever success Germany enjoys is in spite of protectionism, and not because of it. Consider, however, that their GDP is far lower than ours, as is their overall standard of living, and that they spend only a tiny fraction of GDP on defense. You can probably say that protectionism "works" in Germany the same way that socialism "works" in the Scandinavian countries. I'm not sure I'd be willing to sacrifice my standard of living and way of life for what they have.

This entire debate underscores, for me, the reason why statism and liberalism are in the ascendant in our country these days. It is very difficult to retain one's conservative outlook in the face of events that try our sense of reason, and make the emotional alternative seem the better of our options.

50 posted on 08/29/2015 10:48:23 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Trump is a RINO. But he's the lesser of all the evils. Except Cruz. And Cruz can't win.)
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To: nathanbedford
Check out my comment #47. I think you might find the additional factors that I throw into the picture, useful.

By the way, doesn't the German approach to "training," suggest that they have also a better sense of preserving actual communities?

51 posted on 08/29/2015 10:48:49 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: nathanbedford

Let me add this one thing: do you notice how, when speaking of the goods and services that are produced in this country, people on this very site speak of those things as if they were communal property, to be disposed of and manipulated by the State for whatever purposes they, in their wisdom, see fit? That’s how far American conservatism has come since the days of Reagan.


53 posted on 08/29/2015 10:51:42 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Trump is a RINO. But he's the lesser of all the evils. Except Cruz. And Cruz can't win.)
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To: nathanbedford
I like to think of myself as a free thinker as I get older, not just parrot a line because it is "the Republican thing to do" or "the conservative thing to do." I see myself as a libertarian/conservative, the true meaning of both is that one can think on their own and come up with their own conclusions whether many agree or not. I know I'll get into trouble for this but here goes.

I see both pure socialism or communism as well as capitalism as basically where both system are set up to fail at some point. In a nutshell, socialism/communism, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money and such a system does not really reward people who work hard or are brighter, they all get paid the same so it appeals to a lowest common denominator. There are or were exceptions like in the old USSR, as long as you tow the party line and if you are brighter, you might get as few extra perks like a better car, a dacha or the first choice of better consumer goods but for the most part, you are screwed. Also, you have more limited goods, people want things.

On the other side, capitalism. Maybe in its purest form it would work but again, human nature rears its head like it does in socialism/communism. People are different as are nations and like people/nations, they look out for Number One or they should. Cheap goods are fine but if they weaken your nations ability to produce and defend itself, sooner or later, you will not have a nation left rendering the point moot. Capitalism also appeals to a lowest common denominator as well where sooner or later it goes towards the place where labor is cheapest. That's all well and good until your own people are out of work and cannot even afford the cheap products that are made. People in order to live need to have jobs to work at, either that or go on welfare.

I took 4 years of German in high school and studied a lot about (then) West Germany. I do admire on how they do some things over there with their ideas on apprenticeship and education. Then again, some of it was due to us, although they had a good defense, they did rely on the U.S. to be fair so they did have the resources and funds to direct elsewhere. I'm part German myself and my best friend lived there for a while when he was little and he liked it. The only big downside, lack of A/C though, I need a window unit. B-)

Maybe in the grand scheme of thing, free trade is the right thing to do but overall the way the world is, it is not always the best policy to follow.
65 posted on 08/29/2015 8:02:28 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("I wish we were back in the world of Andy Williams." - My mother, 1938-2013, RIP)
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To: nathanbedford

One more thing, I always thought our diversity was a weak point, you will not go on the one needed path of you have umpteen people pulling the wagon into umpteen directions. I daresay that in more homogenous nations like Germany (until the muzzies take over), Norway, Japan and so forth where people generally have the same wants and needs, things will get done in a more timely matter. Even socialism “works better” because of that as well, being homogenous is a key. Here in the U.S., the wants, needs and expectations above a basic level are different among differing peoples and areas. A person in Texas has more need for A/C while one in Alaska has more need for a furnace. Also, among differing ethnic groups that also have differing outlooks and wants. If TSHTF happens, nations like ours and Canada could fly apart.


66 posted on 08/29/2015 8:08:41 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("I wish we were back in the world of Andy Williams." - My mother, 1938-2013, RIP)
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