I don't think there is much air flow across the tropopause (between the troposphere and stratosphere). The largest amount of convection is in the lower troposphere near surface heat sources. Convection goes higher in thunderstorms and as high as the tropopause in the strongest hurricanes. In those cases the air from the convection spreads outwards in a high pressure as there is always a strong high pressure over the strongest hurricanes. Once that air gets far enough away from the hurricane it sinks. There is more subsidence (sinking air) with more convection but the subsidence is generally some distance (possibly many miles) away from the convection.
what little heat is produced simply get overwhelmed by the cooler 6 quadrillion tons of atmosphere + the how ever many tons of molecules from space...
The heat is always overwhelmed by cooling processes no matter how it is generated. If it was not, the sun would have boiled away the oceans long ago without any help from greenhouse gases.
I think what we need to know is the 'air exchange' or 'molecule exchange' rate- cold to hot ratio, as well as factor in the entropy rate as heat gets transferred laterally to neighboring non CO2 molecuels
The heat exchange is very fast (1/10 nanosecond until first collision) and air exchange very slow (takes seconds to move a parcel of air a short distance). The radiative transfer of heat is fast but not as fast as the collisions. The upshot is that the 4 in 10,000 warmer CO2 molecules give up their heat to the 10,000 surrounding non-CO2 molecules but also radiate some away and some of the heated air eventually rises. The heat eventually is radiated into space and is lost forever. There is only radiative heat loss from the atmosphere. All other heat transfer is within the atmosphere. IOW the heat can't go anywhere other than radiated away.
Which leaves me wondering how much of a gap there is between each molecule of CO2 (provided they are in a horizontal layer roughly), and how the CO2 molecules can capture all the right wave ir photons that rise up into atmosphere if there are large gaps? It would seem to me that only the IR photons in the direct path of the CO2 molecules would be absorbed while all the rest- the majority infact of IR photons would slip on by unabsorbed?
The CO2 molecules are spread out in all layers from the surface to the exosphere. CO2 tends to be a little heavier than other air molecules but still light enough to easily rise with the slightest air movement. There are enough of those molecules to cause the mean free path to be about 32 meters: http://www.biocab.org/Mean_Free_Path_Length_Photons.html There are still IR photons that get by, a huge number that are not the right frequency to be absorbed and some portion of those that are the right frequency. It is a statistical result since the interception is only probabilistic, not deterministic.
CO2 molecules are roughly 1 in 10,000, so if there are 10^22 molecules per liter, then there are 10^18 CO2 molecules per liter. Granted they are very spread out in space but move fast giving the illusion of air pressure or "solid" air even though it is mostly empty space. But there are more than enough CO2 molecules to intercept some photons.
True, but In that 1/10 of a nano second while the CO2 molecule is 'full' , two things it seems to me happens, one, new molecules slip past the 'full' CO2 molecule, and 2: as soon as the CO2 releases the energy, it is just as likely to reabsorb already absorbed IR photons (unless an absorbed IR photon becomes incapable of causing excitation in a CO2 molecule IF it has already been absorbed? And if it's frequency changes when it gets expelled?)
Yes, IR photons slip by the 'full' (excited CO2) and the excited CO2 eventually releases a photon (a probabilistic phenomenon). When a photon is absorbed it ceases to exist. It is/was just a form of energy anyway and turns into a different form of energy (molecular excitation). Another thing that is absolutely true (someone's law but I forgot who) is that the frequencies that are absorbed are exactly the same as the frequencies that are emitted. Since there is no change in frequency, that emitted photon can be absorbed by some CO2 molecule a little higher in the atmosphere.
[[When a photon is absorbed it ceases to exist.]]
Ok that helps to know-
[[is that the frequencies that are absorbed are exactly the same as the frequencies that are emitted. Since there is no change in frequency, that emitted photon can be absorbed by some CO2 molecule a little higher in the atmosphere.]]
That’s also important because if the frequency doesn’t change then it can’t be absorbed by other GHG’s and this means the whole atmosphere isn’t actually warming and just the CO2 molecules are the ones warming from this capture and release (Unless other GHG’s can absorb the same frequency?)
[[Granted they are very spread out in space but move fast giving the illusion of air pressure or “solid” air even though it is mostly empty space]]
“Solid” LOCALIZED Areas- as soon as the mass moves from one space to another, it leaves the previous area CO2 free it would seem- there just isn’t enough CO2 to cover the entire atmosphere because there is only 0.04% of the atmosphere to work with- it would be like saying we put BB’s in a bowl the ratio of 0.04% of the bowl, move the bowl around so that the BB’s spin quickly around the bowl- the bowl’s total volume is not being covered by the 0.04% BB’s because there is always areas that have no BB’s in it- infact almost 100% has no BB’s in it at any given time-
The only way it could prevent almost all IR from passing through to space unimpeded was if it was so fast, and the rising IR photons so slow, that all space is covered by the 0.04% in a relatively short period while the IR photons are ‘stalled’ I nthe general vicinity
[[There are enough of those molecules to cause the mean free path to be about 32 meters:]]
32 meters what? Thick? Wide? Long? Certainly it can’t mean there is a 32 meter thick layer of CO2 around the whole globe? 0.04% of the atmosphere doesn’t give anywhere near enough mass to cover the globe- Are you saying it’s a ‘small blanket’ 32 meters long when all the molecules are added up?
[[and air exchange very slow (takes seconds to move a parcel of air a short distance).]]
Ever been sneezed on? it aint slow- lol- but anyways- is this rate constant? Or does it vary depending on weather, conditions, clouds, no clouds etc?
[[The upshot is that the 4 in 10,000 warmer CO2 molecules give up their heat to the 10,000 surrounding non-CO2 molecules]]
the question then becomes, do these 4 molecules give it up to ALL the non CO2 molecules, or just to a few? If it is to all, then there is some pretty heavy exchanging going on and the entropy issue comes into play so that the last non CO2 molecules to receive the heated molecule neighbor’s ‘bounty’ will be receiving nothing but ‘room temperature’ heat- equilibriuminated molecules at this point
I coulda sworn I replied to your last post the other day- it’s like Deja Vu all over again- maybe I just read you post and thought about it- but I coulda sworn I replied lol