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To: Kaslin
"...If we can't solve this one then the nation may be culturally past the point of no return..."

This is hyperbole. The decision to allow or exclude WASPS from burial in Arlington isn't the thing that will push us over the edge of no return.

That said, they are non-military, so should not be buried at military cemeteries, in my opinion. WASPS were not ferrying aircraft into combat zones, but within the United States and rarely, Canada.

If we allow WASPS to be buried there, why not allow members of the Civilian Air Patrol to be buried in Arlington? I have heard that if you were in the Merchant Marine, you could be buried in military cemeteries, but haven't been able to confirm it. And they certainly had their lives on the line more than the WASPS did. Although forty or so were killed in WWII during training, that has to pale in comparison to the numbers of men killed in training alone. (I have heard 15,000 were killed in the USA in training aircraft alone from 1939 to 1945...don't know if that is accurate)

No disrespect to WASPS, but I simply don't think they should be buried in military cemeteries. I think we should acknowledge that they worked hard, did service that was necessary and could be dangerous, but I think it should be kept in context. I would suggest that even though they received military flight training, their crashes and injuries should come under industrial statistics, not military ones, even taking into account that military planes were more complex and prone to failure.

17 posted on 01/03/2016 2:33:01 PM PST by rlmorel ("Irrational violence against muslims" is a myth, but "Irrational violence against non-muslims" isn't)
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To: Kaslin

I did see one statistic that said that the amount of military deaths in combat did not exceed the annual deaths due to industrial accidents until 1943, and while it doesn’t sound right, if you take the statistic that says 85,000 workers died of all causes in industrial accidents between 1941 and 1945, I suppose that could be true.


19 posted on 01/03/2016 2:38:16 PM PST by rlmorel ("Irrational violence against muslims" is a myth, but "Irrational violence against non-muslims" isn't)
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To: rlmorel

There were many defense and quasi-military operations during WWII. Every one of them was important to the war effort.

As mentioned already, the Merchant Marine operations were quite hazardous, and could easily be seen as a military mission, esp when the Wolfpacs were on the prowl.

Steel plants, shipyards, munitions factories, and Aircraft Factories were all considered secured locations, and all had active duty military on site. And although these support ops were essential to winning the war, and every job filled there by a woman freed up a potential soldier to face the enemy, none were considered “military service”, and none eligible for a Veteran’s burial at a state or federal cemetery.

This WASP is eligible to be interred in a State or National Cemetery along with other US Vets, and that is truly an honor our country bestows on those who served. My Father is interred in a Veterans’ Cemetery in SC, and looking at the headstones of his “neighbors”, he is in the company of true American Heroes.

Arlington is not the only cemetery in the country that honors and accepts our fallen Veterans.


30 posted on 01/03/2016 2:57:45 PM PST by wrench
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To: rlmorel

I disagree. These women performed a vital role during the war and combined flew 60 Million Miles transporting aircraft, some I think even to England.

They more than put their lives on the line just as much as the men in the Army Air Corps did. The rules have been stretched since W.W. II to include a number of people and categories that allowed burial at Arlington.

Here is a link for info on the WASP’S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_Airforce_Service_Pilots

I am including some statistics I came across a few years ago and the terrible toll the Army Air Corps suffered during W.W. II. The worst were all the accidents right here in the U.S.. Those women put themselves in that same danger day and day out. If we are only taking about such a small number then I think they more than earned it.

Amazing WW2 Aircraft Facts

On average, 6,600 American servicemen died every month during WWII (about 220 a day).

276,000 aircraft were manufactured in the US .
43,000 planes were lost overseas, including 23,000 in combat.
14,000 were lost in the continental U.S.

The staggering cost of aircraft in 1945 dollars

B-17 $204,370. P-40 $44,892.
B-24 $215,516. P-47 $85,578.
B-25 $142,194. P-51 $51,572.
B-26 $192,426. C-47 $88,574.
B-29 $605,360. PT-17 $15,052.
P-38 $97,147. AT-6 $22,952.

From Germany ‘s invasion of Poland Sept. 1, 1939 until Japan ‘s surrender on Sept. 2, 1945 equals 2,433 days. America lost an average of 170 planes a day.

A B-17 carried 2,500 gallons of high octane fuel and carried a crew of 10 airmen.
9.7 billion gallons of gasoline were consumed.
108 million hours were flown.
460 thousand million rounds of aircraft ammo was fired overseas.
7.9 million bombs were dropped overseas.
2.3 million combat flights.
299,230 aircraft used.
808,471 aircraft engines used.
799,972 propellers.

The US lost 14,903 pilots, aircrew and support personnel plus 13,873 airplanes -— inside the continental United States. There were 52,651 aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.
Averaging 1,170 aircraft accidents per month—— nearly 40 a day.

It gets worse.....
Almost 1,000 planes disappeared en route from the US to foreign climes. But 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 in Europe ) and 20,633 due to non-combat causes overseas.

In a single 376 plane raid in August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down. That was a 16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England. In 1942-43, it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete the intended 25-mission tour in Europe .

Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to smaller forces committed. The B-29 mission against Tokyo on May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortresses, 5.6 percent of the 464 dispatched from the Marianas.

On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII, about 220 a day. Over 40,000 airmen were killed in combat and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000 missing men were declared dead, including those “liberated” by the Soviets but never returned. More than 41,000 were captured. Half of the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were 121,867.

The US forces peak strength was in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year’s figure.

Losses were huge-—but so were production totals. From 1941 through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military aircraft. That was not only for US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but also for allies as diverse as Britain , Australia , China and Russia .
Our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the Luftwaffe sustained hemorrhaging of 25% of aircrews and 40 planes a month.

Experience Level:
Uncle Sam sent many men to war with minimum training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than 1 hour in their assigned aircraft..
The 357th Fighter Group (The Yoxford Boys) went to England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s, then flew Mustangs. They never saw a Mustang until the first combat mission.

With the arrival of new aircraft, many units transitioned in combat. The attitude was, “They all have a stick and a throttle. Go fly `em.” When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to P-51s in Feb 44, there was no time to stand down for an orderly transition. The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said, “You can learn to fly 51s on the way to the target.”

A future P-47 ace said, “I was sent to England to die.” Many bomber crews were still learning their trade. Of Jimmy Doolittle’s 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five had won their wings before 1941. All but one of the 16 co-pilots were less than a year out of flight school.

In WW2, safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF’s worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours. Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.

Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24 averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours respectively— a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000 the Air Force’s major mishap rate was less than 2.

The B-29 was even worse at 40 per 100,000 hours; the world’s most sophisticated, most capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to be able to stand down for mere safety reasons.

(Compare: when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force declared a two-month “safety pause”).
The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Although the R3350 was known as a complicated, troublesome power-plant, only half the mechanics had previous experience with it.
Navigators: Perhaps the greatest success story concerned Navigators. The Army graduated some 50,000 during WW2. Many had never flown out of sight of land before leaving “Uncle Sugar” for a war zone. Yet they found their way across oceans and continents without getting lost or running out of fuel - a tribute to the AAF’s training.
At its height in mid-1944, the USAAF had 2.6 million people and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types.
Today the US Air Force employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+ manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft. That’s about 12% of the manpower and 7% of the airplanes of the WW2 peak.

SUMMATION: Another war like that of 1939-45 is doubtful, as fighters and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled drones, eg. over Afghanistan and Iraq.
But within our living memory, men left the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless (for which we should be grateful).


37 posted on 01/03/2016 3:12:00 PM PST by Captain Peter Blood
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