Posted on 01/28/2016 6:41:33 PM PST by Ray76
The authority exercised their prerogative at Waco too, but it didn’t end there, did it? There’s a civil war going on now. When you get democrats running the country, notice how it heats up.
Stepping through the video frame by frame from when Finicum exits the truck until the shooting is interesting. The guy in the woods was there all along and it looks like Finicum was responding first to him and then to the other one coming over the snowbank. It’s hard to say from the video what happened. Snowbank man may have shot him as well and then woods man charged out blasting. He never should have left the stop.
“When he exited the vehicle, the rear wheels were still spinning,” McConnell said.
= = =
If they were, it was really hard for McConnell to see from the distance where he was, and buried in the snow and all.
Unless someone on scene told him this little tidbit to add ‘realism’ to his statement.
Thanks for posting this!
right. sadly, this conflict. the conflict between good and evil goes on until Judgement Day. on the positive side, only one man died this. it could have been a lot worse.
He almost ran over an officer at 9:18.
Yes, although it was probably accidental, in my state that then authorizes the officers to use deadly force in response. We have had several car thieves here bite the dust because they charged an officer with the vehicle while trying to get away.
What I can’t figure out is why the two officers exposed themselves out in the open when they knew other folks were in the car. I would have been worried about being shot by the other occupants of the car.
Authorities only facing 4th string team.
Unless you knew you didn’t have to be worried.
The video agrees with several points of the young lady’s testimony.
At the first stop, I see hands reach out from the pickup. The young lady says they were shot at. This would cause Finicum to flee.
Then I see a blind roadblock set up. The cop who almost got himself ran over was incredibly stupid enough to get himself out in the active path of a vehicle. He’s a dummy. Not Finicum’s fault if he’s fleeing people who are shooting at him and a car full of people.
Finicum runs out with his hands up, and there just happens to be a cop behind him out in the frigid forest? Finicum not aware of him, probably surprised. He looks like he’s wanting to give up and drop any weapon he has. No chance, shot in the back. There clearly is no intent by Finicum to charge any cop.
Note also that there were no ambulances on site, and I see no medical personnel. No one approached Finicum after he was shot to check his medical status. I guess they planned on a perfect stop and arrest with no confrontation, correct?
Then I see multiple flash bang grenades and shots into the vehicle. Agrees with the girl’s statement of many rounds fired and being gassed. Were they planning on shooting until all in the vehicle were dead?
At no time in the first stop or the second did these cops attempt to de-escalate. The first stop could have gone smoothly had a sheriff with balls approached the vehicle to talk and keep the emotions down.
These people were known to be on their way to a meeting with locals. These cops had no intention of a peaceful stop and arrest.
If cops start shooting at you when you have been stopped, what are you going to do?
If they were being fired at in the first stop, should they stay there and get killed?
Apparrently there were shots fired by the occupants in the car. That’s why they are being held on Murder and Attempted Murder charges.
> Murder and Attempted Murder charges.
Source?
I have been through it frame by frame.
If this is a true representation of what happened...and it looks authentic and unedited...but I do not have the tools to say that last for sure...then it was about 13-14 seconds between the time Lavoy got out of the vehicle, after trying to plow through the snow and get around the roadblock, and the time he was shot.
During that time, he did reach down to his side a couple of time. He faced first one officer by the cars, and then noticed another (and there were two back there) coming out of the trees. He did reach down...and this second guy appears to be the one who shot. I do not think more than two or three shot at him...but I cannot say.
They then gathered themselves together and used some flash bangs on the truck.
Ultimately, the have toe other occupants come out one by one and secure them. Then, afire about 12 minutes, they get back to Lavoy...but I am sure that by that time he was certainly gone...in fact from my perspective, when he went down he never so much as moved again and I think he was mortally wounded from the start.
It’s hard to watch.
Lavoy clearly drove off after being stopped. One car followed and it was at a good distance on this video. I do not see how much if any shooting occurred during the cahse...it wasn’t really a chase.
He came out of the vehicle almost immediately after it stopped...and to begin with his hands were up...but when he faced the first guy, he clearly reaches down to his side. Bit that guy did not fire. when he turns to the second guy and appears to reach down again is when the hooting starts...and he went right down.
From watching this...honestly, I cannot say that the shooting was murder at all.
The courts will decide whether it was justified. The courts will decide whether there was any reason for such force. Clearly...this was an abject set up. They had many vehicles, a road block and an aircraft (eitherr a helo, a small fixed wing aircraft, or perhaps a UAV) in the air already for this.
The courts will decide if that was necessary and if these people had been told that they would be allowed safe passage.
I have a feeling they were...and I have a fleeing that that Sheriff Ward was in the middle of it.
I have taken 34 of the stilles from the time he approached the roadblock until the time the officers finally gathered around hi body and analyzed them.
I will post that analysis tomorrow.
You can make an argument that we are approaching the point where enough Americans have irreconcilable differences with government that something will change, but I don’t think we are there yet nor would something like this event be anywhere on my list of actions.
If the citizens in Ferguson, MO, used this logic people around here would soundly condemn them. Oh, wait.
The psychology of this whole event is fascinating to me - I have read plenty about it and watched many interviews. Their demands (outside of asking for clemency for the Hammonds) never made sense to me.
The main theme often seemed to be that the Federal government withdraw and give the land to Oregon. Do they really believe the people of Oregon (or even the citizens in Burns) would convert the bird sanctuary to a pasture full of free-graze cattle for ranchers? Some of them believe they have the right to graze cattle on any public land and those rights are derived in all kinds of ways with arguments that honestly make a far better case to me that the land should be turned over to the Native American tribes that occupied it for centuries - or maybe the tribe they took it from - or maybe the tribe that controlled it before that one.....
This situation and the Bundy stand-off that preceded it would not enlist the sympathy or support of 5% of Americans. To believe the convoluted demands from Ammon Bundy would precipitate a civil war is silly.
On top of that - none of them that I saw actually lived there. Most of them subscribe to a kind of sovereign citizen belief (even as a few collect a gov’t check) yet they ignored the legal authority of the duly elected Sheriff in complete violation of sovereign citizen beliefs. I could go on and on.......
Another hazard with events like this is that they attract mentally ill people like the guy in the video I posted above. That is the problem with vigilante’s, revolutionary’s, and opposition groups of every color, belief, and creed - it’s made up of people. If you have netflix there is a pretty interesting documentary on there right now that shows the problems we would face in a rather unbiased way (I thought it was fair) - it’s called Cartel Land. It seems pretty fair and shows the Grupo Autodefensa led by a doctor (a local militia group) that rises up to fight against the drug cartels and corrupt police. It also focuses on a “militia” guy who has his own armed border patrol. The Autodefensa started out as a noble calling to rid the town/city of narcos. In the end you end up seeing that in some ways they are as bad as what they began to fight against and you also see how people who join can pervert the purpose to their own ends - in real life they took over drug trafficking in a few towns - the very goal they set out to stop.
Revolution isn’t easy. I am pretty convinced that our founding fathers faith and spiritual outlook combined with the spirit and work ethic of the settlers is what made ours a success. Based on events like this and what I hear from many folks (sure some think the same for me) I don’t believe everyone would like what came next even if they did rise up.
Take time and read what others think about the Bundy occupation around the country - they vote just like you and I do and it certainly did not inspire anything in most Americans - even contempt for many. Hardly the spark of a new revolution and frankly, this is not the same country or population that revolution was born in. I don’t think that particular time in history could be obtained again - certainly not in our lifetimes.
Many here on FR understand that Iraq was made up of three sects/tribes/regions - Sunni, Shia, and Kurd. Interspersed in there you had a small Christian population. Many of us laughed at the thought that anything other than a cruel dictator could hold such a divided country together. I sometimes wonder if our nation is not becoming more like Iraq - hopelessly divided along lines that are difficult to cross. I hope not, but the divisions in our nation are far beyond any idea of unity in our hearts.
Well said. The leadership drove in to an ambush. LEO planned takedown by any means necessary. The shot in the back on video is especially nasty.
Sounds like it is close enough for a reasonable shoot.
I said before that if no videos emerged, it was murder.
Videos emerged seemingly cooroborating the eyewitness account, or close enough to justify the shoot.
I cannot get too worked up about this one, and I’m on your — our — side.
Read post 94 - curious what you think. And yes, this was certainly not cold blooded murder as so many around here have alleged.
Looks like they set a trap, ambushed and shot him in the back.
They had him surrounded, outgunned outnumbered and they couldn’t control him?
Instead they sneak up from behind and surprise him from the perfect distance ....to startle and shoot.
At least that’s what they are going to be all charged with by the State of Oregon.
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